Hi, what information can HR give out when they get a call from the future employer (in California)? Can they give out the current salary and the information why somebody was fired?
Having never lived in California (and truthfully, hoping to never live in California), I have little knowledge of California laws. So, these are general principles, which will, hopefully, be helpful.
To my knowledge, there is no law that dictates what a company can and cannot say about a former employee. Theoretically, they could give details about your termination. In practice, one too many employee has sued because of a bad reference and few companies divulge that information. Most HR departments, when asked, will confirm dates of service and last title.
Note that I said confirm. This means that if I call up and say, "When did John Doe work for you and what was his title?" they won't answer. But, if I say, "I'm doing a reference check on John Doe. I have that he worked for you from June of 1998 to August 2006 and that his last job title was Sr. Director, New Products. Is that correct?" They'll either say, "yes" or "no."
But, the real answer to your question is, if you want to know what a former company will say about you, then call them up and ask. You can say, "This is John Doe and I want to know what you would say about me in a reference check." Or, you can just say you are checking references for John Doe. Go ahead and ask, "why did he leave?" They'll either answer or say, "we don't release that information."
But, I get the sense that you are hoping to be able to lie about why your employment was unceremoniously terminated. Don't. It will come back to bite you. I promise. The business world is surprisingly small. Any lie you make will be exposed. Do not risk it. Just, don't.
As for dollar amounts, most companies won't reveal salary information (see above). However, as a warning, some companies require W2s from your previous job. I guess it saves them the phone calls.
So, call and ask, but don't lie.
Tuesday, May 15, 2007
Monday, May 14, 2007
We're Back!
We survived our trip to Disney World with only one trip to the emergency room. (Middle of the night ear infection.)
Hopefully this means I shall return to regular blogging. I must write something soon so I can get it to Carmen (team at raceintheworkplace dot com)for this week's Carnival of Human Resources.
Friday, May 11, 2007
Bully Boss
Hello Evil.
I have been the target of my bully boss for about a year and a half now, and am at my wits end. She and I worked as peers for a year and a half, at which time we both applied for a supervisory position. She got the job, I didn't. No hard feelings on my end, as I knew this would most likely be the case because she had been at the
company far longer than I, and had delveloped close relationships with management. My application was a career move. Since then, she has been my superior, and has done everything she can to make my work life a living hell. She has confronted me in front of my peers and privately, attacked me personally via e-mail and verbally (about things that have nothing to do with my performance), she meets with my clients (I am in sales) privately without inviting me or telling me about it, reprimands me for helping my peers, etc.
I have brought my complaints to her supervisors, and to HR, to no avail. The perception has been that I am "sour grapes" because I didn't get the job. Never mind that my complaints were not personal, and that I had well documented evidence of her behavior. I also have a spotless performance record. My last meeting with the VP of the company lasted all of three minutes, in which he didn't ask me anything about my complaints or the problems I was having - but merely told me I needed to find a way to resolve my "personal issues", and to ask me if I felt I
was unable to work with her (translation: did I need to be fired).
I have been in my career field for almost eight years, and have been very successful up to this point. A non-compete is standard practice in my industry, and I would either have to wait out my non-compete or move over 500 miles away to get a job in the same career field. I am not able to do either. I requested to be released from my non-compete, and my request was denied without any inquiry into why I wanted to be
released.
I need advise as to what to do. I have begun having stress related health issues, and my family life is suffering due to the problems I am having at work. My performance (and therefore income, as I am a commissioned employee) is suffering as well. I cannot remain in this position much longer. I am considering violating my non-compete, and challenging any legal action they bring citing a hostile work
environment. I appreciate any advice you can give.
It sounds as if you are in a pickle. Undoubtedly they do think you have sour grapes. Especially your direct supervisor--she probably believes that you are trying to undermine her so she perceives your neutral actions as hostile.
You can attempt to negotiate with the manager--could you be transferred to a different manager or territory? Of course, from what you've written, it sounds like you've already tried that option. If HR is asking if you want to be fired, the answer may be yes.
Do you have a copy of your non-compete agreement? Hopefully you do. The first thing you want to find out is if the non-compete applies in an involuntary termination. Some of them do. (Although as a side note, you can negotiate non-competes and you should never sign one that is enforceable in the case of an involuntary termination.)
If yours does not have that restriction you may want to sit down with a labor and employment lawyer and explain that you believe your company is trying to force a constructive Discharge.
This is where companies make it so intolerable to work there, that you have no choice but to quit. If so, then you can effectively argue that your termination was involuntary and therefore your non-compete is not in effect.
Just so you know, a hostile work environment has a specific definition that pertains to sexual, racial or other protected group harrassment. This doesn't fall into that category. But, constructive discharge should be your magic words.
Good luck and I hope you can get out of your non-compete.
Sincerely,
Evil HR Lady
I have been the target of my bully boss for about a year and a half now, and am at my wits end. She and I worked as peers for a year and a half, at which time we both applied for a supervisory position. She got the job, I didn't. No hard feelings on my end, as I knew this would most likely be the case because she had been at the
company far longer than I, and had delveloped close relationships with management. My application was a career move. Since then, she has been my superior, and has done everything she can to make my work life a living hell. She has confronted me in front of my peers and privately, attacked me personally via e-mail and verbally (about things that have nothing to do with my performance), she meets with my clients (I am in sales) privately without inviting me or telling me about it, reprimands me for helping my peers, etc.
I have brought my complaints to her supervisors, and to HR, to no avail. The perception has been that I am "sour grapes" because I didn't get the job. Never mind that my complaints were not personal, and that I had well documented evidence of her behavior. I also have a spotless performance record. My last meeting with the VP of the company lasted all of three minutes, in which he didn't ask me anything about my complaints or the problems I was having - but merely told me I needed to find a way to resolve my "personal issues", and to ask me if I felt I
was unable to work with her (translation: did I need to be fired).
I have been in my career field for almost eight years, and have been very successful up to this point. A non-compete is standard practice in my industry, and I would either have to wait out my non-compete or move over 500 miles away to get a job in the same career field. I am not able to do either. I requested to be released from my non-compete, and my request was denied without any inquiry into why I wanted to be
released.
I need advise as to what to do. I have begun having stress related health issues, and my family life is suffering due to the problems I am having at work. My performance (and therefore income, as I am a commissioned employee) is suffering as well. I cannot remain in this position much longer. I am considering violating my non-compete, and challenging any legal action they bring citing a hostile work
environment. I appreciate any advice you can give.
It sounds as if you are in a pickle. Undoubtedly they do think you have sour grapes. Especially your direct supervisor--she probably believes that you are trying to undermine her so she perceives your neutral actions as hostile.
You can attempt to negotiate with the manager--could you be transferred to a different manager or territory? Of course, from what you've written, it sounds like you've already tried that option. If HR is asking if you want to be fired, the answer may be yes.
Do you have a copy of your non-compete agreement? Hopefully you do. The first thing you want to find out is if the non-compete applies in an involuntary termination. Some of them do. (Although as a side note, you can negotiate non-competes and you should never sign one that is enforceable in the case of an involuntary termination.)
If yours does not have that restriction you may want to sit down with a labor and employment lawyer and explain that you believe your company is trying to force a constructive Discharge.
This is where companies make it so intolerable to work there, that you have no choice but to quit. If so, then you can effectively argue that your termination was involuntary and therefore your non-compete is not in effect.
Just so you know, a hostile work environment has a specific definition that pertains to sexual, racial or other protected group harrassment. This doesn't fall into that category. But, constructive discharge should be your magic words.
Good luck and I hope you can get out of your non-compete.
Sincerely,
Evil HR Lady
Carnival of Human Resources Reminder!
Carmen at Race in the Workplace" is hosting the next Carnival of HR, which will be next Wednesday Because Carmen is not a procrastinator like I am, she would like submissions sooner rather than later--preferrably by Monday night.
Send your submissions to team at raceintheworkplace dot com. Make sure you put Carnival in the subject line.
Send your submissions to team at raceintheworkplace dot com. Make sure you put Carnival in the subject line.
Tuesday, May 08, 2007
Rehire
Hello,
I came across your website and would love to get some information from you. From what I read, you seem to be extremely knowledgable about the HR field. I was terminated from a job approximately 6 years ago. This company has a no rehire policy, but Id like to apply again anyways. From what I was told, this company has a 6 year retention policy for employee files/records. Im not sure how that process works. My question is, would it be possible for me to get back in without them knowing I was a previous employee since it has been six years since I was last employed there? Id like to know the odds of this happening. Any suggestions?
Thanks for your advice...
Dear Job Seeker,
I hope your day isn't ruined by my answer. My day should be fine, by the way, as I am blogging from Disney World (well, from my hotel--although, blogging would be a useful way to pass the time while standing in lines).
I doubt your company has a true "we don't rehire anyone" policy. Most likely they have a "we won't rehire a select group" policy.
First of all, if they have told you that you are not eligible for rehire, you aren't, even if it's been six years. We run a search on the social security number of everyone we hire so even if your name has changed since you left, we know who you are.
Second, I've never yet seen a job application that doesn't ask if you've worked for this company previously. If you check "no" and get hired and they find out about it later (which they will--6 years is a very short time) you'll be fired.
Now, if you want to apply and be honest and go ahead. It can't hurt. But, don't try to skirt the policy.
Good luck on the job hunt. There are a zillion companies out there. Better ones than the one you left.
Evil HR Lady
I came across your website and would love to get some information from you. From what I read, you seem to be extremely knowledgable about the HR field. I was terminated from a job approximately 6 years ago. This company has a no rehire policy, but Id like to apply again anyways. From what I was told, this company has a 6 year retention policy for employee files/records. Im not sure how that process works. My question is, would it be possible for me to get back in without them knowing I was a previous employee since it has been six years since I was last employed there? Id like to know the odds of this happening. Any suggestions?
Thanks for your advice...
Dear Job Seeker,
I hope your day isn't ruined by my answer. My day should be fine, by the way, as I am blogging from Disney World (well, from my hotel--although, blogging would be a useful way to pass the time while standing in lines).
I doubt your company has a true "we don't rehire anyone" policy. Most likely they have a "we won't rehire a select group" policy.
First of all, if they have told you that you are not eligible for rehire, you aren't, even if it's been six years. We run a search on the social security number of everyone we hire so even if your name has changed since you left, we know who you are.
Second, I've never yet seen a job application that doesn't ask if you've worked for this company previously. If you check "no" and get hired and they find out about it later (which they will--6 years is a very short time) you'll be fired.
Now, if you want to apply and be honest and go ahead. It can't hurt. But, don't try to skirt the policy.
Good luck on the job hunt. There are a zillion companies out there. Better ones than the one you left.
Evil HR Lady
I Heart HR
Yesterday at Epcot Center I walked past a woman wearing a large button that said "I 'Heart' HR." I thought that was quite bizarre.
I mean, I love HR too. (Except when we do really silly things like require 14 signatures to allow someone to telecommute.) But, I don't think I'd go around with a button that proclaimed my affection.
I mean, I love HR too. (Except when we do really silly things like require 14 signatures to allow someone to telecommute.) But, I don't think I'd go around with a button that proclaimed my affection.
Saturday, May 05, 2007
Vacation
We are almost ready to head out the door for our trip to Disney World. The Offspring woke up at 5:30 this morning, ready to go. Our flight leaves at 6:00 p.m., so she was a bit over prepared.
What this means to the rest of you is that there will undoubtedly be light blogging the next week.
What this means to the rest of you is that there will undoubtedly be light blogging the next week.
On Call
I switched jobs within my company about a year and a half ago. With my last job I was considered exempt and was expected to be on call 7 days a week. The company furnished me with a cell phone to use for business purposes. When I switched jobs I was also switched to nonexempt and I was no longer required to be "on call". My phone was taken away from me because I would no longer need it anymore according to my boss.
I got a phone of my own and my boss told me he needed to have that phone number in case anyone needed to get a hold of me. Occasionally I would get late night phone calls from people that work asking me questions that I thought could have waited until the next day. Not only that but most of the time I would be sleeping and didn't even hear my phone. I changed my phone number because of other circumstances and did not give them my new number. I was told that they needed to have the new number. I refused. I told them I did not want the silly late night phone calls and I since they did not pay for my phone I shouldn't have to give it to them. My boss though he was not happy let it go. The subject has come up again and my question is, can my employer make me give them my cell phone number? I was on call for this company for 4 straight years and I just really do not want to be bothered anymore. I work Mon-Fri form 8-5 and when I go home I don't want to think about that place. I think if they want me to be on call they can pay for my cell phone and put me back on exempt status, but I know this will not happen.
Thank you,
Sleeping
Dear Sleeping,
Any co-worker that calls you while you are asleep for anything short of a life-threatening emergency should be forced to watch 24 consecutive hours of Barney--and poked with a stick every time they start to nod off. That should cure 'em!
You're currently non-exempt. This means you are paid by the amount of time you work, and not by the job you do. This also means that they have to pay you if they call you. They don't, however, have to pay you for being available. The Department of Labor gives this information about being on call, as a non-exempt employee:
So, yes, they can require you to be on call, but they do have to pay you if they call you. (Of course, if it's a 30 second question, how are you going to charge that?)
Should they? No. Generally, employers pay people a premium for being on call, although according to the DOL they do not have to.
I understand not wanting to be available, but if it's part of the job, it's part of the job. I do think, however, the next time your boss asks you state, "You know I'm a non-exempt employee and legally you have to pay me every time you call me. I'll put down 15 minutes for each phone call."
I bet that will either solve the problem or he'll agree--but at least you'll be paid for being annoyed.
Sincerely,
Evil HR Lady
I got a phone of my own and my boss told me he needed to have that phone number in case anyone needed to get a hold of me. Occasionally I would get late night phone calls from people that work asking me questions that I thought could have waited until the next day. Not only that but most of the time I would be sleeping and didn't even hear my phone. I changed my phone number because of other circumstances and did not give them my new number. I was told that they needed to have the new number. I refused. I told them I did not want the silly late night phone calls and I since they did not pay for my phone I shouldn't have to give it to them. My boss though he was not happy let it go. The subject has come up again and my question is, can my employer make me give them my cell phone number? I was on call for this company for 4 straight years and I just really do not want to be bothered anymore. I work Mon-Fri form 8-5 and when I go home I don't want to think about that place. I think if they want me to be on call they can pay for my cell phone and put me back on exempt status, but I know this will not happen.
Thank you,
Sleeping
Dear Sleeping,
Any co-worker that calls you while you are asleep for anything short of a life-threatening emergency should be forced to watch 24 consecutive hours of Barney--and poked with a stick every time they start to nod off. That should cure 'em!
You're currently non-exempt. This means you are paid by the amount of time you work, and not by the job you do. This also means that they have to pay you if they call you. They don't, however, have to pay you for being available. The Department of Labor gives this information about being on call, as a non-exempt employee:
On-Call Time: An employee who is required to remain on call on the employer's premises is working while "on call." An employee who is required to remain on call at home, or who is allowed to leave a message where he/she can be reached, is not working (in most cases) while on call. Additional constraints on the employee's freedom could require this time to be compensated.
So, yes, they can require you to be on call, but they do have to pay you if they call you. (Of course, if it's a 30 second question, how are you going to charge that?)
Should they? No. Generally, employers pay people a premium for being on call, although according to the DOL they do not have to.
I understand not wanting to be available, but if it's part of the job, it's part of the job. I do think, however, the next time your boss asks you state, "You know I'm a non-exempt employee and legally you have to pay me every time you call me. I'll put down 15 minutes for each phone call."
I bet that will either solve the problem or he'll agree--but at least you'll be paid for being annoyed.
Sincerely,
Evil HR Lady
Friday, May 04, 2007
Attracts Chickadees, Grossbeaks and Juncos
We have a bird feeder on our back porch. I just noticed that the bird seed I buy says it attracts the above birds.
I don't have any idea what a Grossbeak or Junco is. (I know, I know, Google is my friend, but I don't feel like it.) So, my question is, do I really want to attract these birds. That is, apparently, what I am attracting based on my decision to purchase this type of birdseed.
Yesterday I went to a seminar that included a section on Corporate Branding. Not a "Hey, Sprite is good to drink" type of branding, but "Coca-cola is a great company to work for" type of branding. (That wasn't the example in the seminar, by the way. I have no idea if Coca-Cola is a good company to work for. I just know I don't need all that available sugar in all my meetings.)
Anyway, are you branding your company to attract the kinds of birds--um, applicants--you want, or did you just buy the cheapest bag? Do you keep stamping your foot and saying, "Why do I always get resumes from Juncos? I don't want more Juncos. I want Peacocks!" (You don't, by the way, they are noisy.) Well, what birdseed are you using?
And just because I couldn't stand it any more, here is a Junco.
I don't have any idea what a Grossbeak or Junco is. (I know, I know, Google is my friend, but I don't feel like it.) So, my question is, do I really want to attract these birds. That is, apparently, what I am attracting based on my decision to purchase this type of birdseed.
Yesterday I went to a seminar that included a section on Corporate Branding. Not a "Hey, Sprite is good to drink" type of branding, but "Coca-cola is a great company to work for" type of branding. (That wasn't the example in the seminar, by the way. I have no idea if Coca-Cola is a good company to work for. I just know I don't need all that available sugar in all my meetings.)
Anyway, are you branding your company to attract the kinds of birds--um, applicants--you want, or did you just buy the cheapest bag? Do you keep stamping your foot and saying, "Why do I always get resumes from Juncos? I don't want more Juncos. I want Peacocks!" (You don't, by the way, they are noisy.) Well, what birdseed are you using?
And just because I couldn't stand it any more, here is a Junco.
Carnival of HR #6
Is up at About Human Resources. Hop on over and visit the big top!
The Next Carnival will be May 16 at Race in the Workplace.
The Next Carnival will be May 16 at Race in the Workplace.
Wednesday, May 02, 2007
The Truth About Being Fired
Dear HR Lady,
Recently I was fired from my job for violation of code of conduct. I work for an outsourcing company with operations in India. Before my coworker left the company, he gave me a cartoon of an american child angry at her father b/c he declined her request to outsource her homework to India.
While my coworker was with firm for couple years, it was never an issue. When I was not present at my desk due to surgery, supposedly, an employee from India saw the cartoon and felt threatened by it. I am not looking for sympathy but I believe that I was targeted because of my vocal criticism of the poor management--in hindsight, that was the stupid thing to do--I feel that I was targeted specifically.
After I was dismissed during my recovery from surgery, I decided to pursue my CPA. I am currently interviewing for jobs and they ask me the reason for my departure from my previous firm in late November.
I tell them about my pursuit of CPA and change in management, both which are true. However, I cannot bring up to tell them that I was fired. I feel that if I bring that up, it will automatically disqualify me from the competitive jobs that I am seeking. I want to be honest but it really bothers me that I was fired. I am only 25 years old and have 1.5 years of full time experience. What should I do? I know lying is wrong but how much can HR find out by calling the old firm which I worked for? I don't know what to do. Thanks in advance.
J
Dear J,
First, you can find out what your former HR department will say by calling up and asking them. Most large companies only allow their HR department to confirm dates of employment and titles.
Second, it is always good to be honest. Honesty is the best policy. But, you don't have to tell everyone everything about everyone. If they ask why you left, you don't need to mention the cartoon, you can mention you were terminated. Explain how you've learned a great deal from the experience and you took it as an opportunity to gain your CPA. Then go directly into a discussion of the new qualification you gained since then.
Be positive, not bitter. Focus on your skills. Don't keep thinking that this one blip on you resume will ruin your life. I know many people who have been fired (and by fired, I mean terminated for poor performance and cause, not just laid off) and they've all come away better for it. You can learn and grow from it.
I understand how devastating it is to be fired. Heck, when I was working as a temp I cried when I was told a temp assignment was over. But, trust me, you are not the only person who has ever been fired. Most likely at least one of the people you will be interviewing with has been fired themselves.
I'm sorry you had to go through this. Hopefully, with your new CPA certification on your resume and your past work experience, you'll get over this bump. And by the way, can I ask you a tax question?
Good luck!
Evil HR Lady
Recently I was fired from my job for violation of code of conduct. I work for an outsourcing company with operations in India. Before my coworker left the company, he gave me a cartoon of an american child angry at her father b/c he declined her request to outsource her homework to India.
While my coworker was with firm for couple years, it was never an issue. When I was not present at my desk due to surgery, supposedly, an employee from India saw the cartoon and felt threatened by it. I am not looking for sympathy but I believe that I was targeted because of my vocal criticism of the poor management--in hindsight, that was the stupid thing to do--I feel that I was targeted specifically.
After I was dismissed during my recovery from surgery, I decided to pursue my CPA. I am currently interviewing for jobs and they ask me the reason for my departure from my previous firm in late November.
I tell them about my pursuit of CPA and change in management, both which are true. However, I cannot bring up to tell them that I was fired. I feel that if I bring that up, it will automatically disqualify me from the competitive jobs that I am seeking. I want to be honest but it really bothers me that I was fired. I am only 25 years old and have 1.5 years of full time experience. What should I do? I know lying is wrong but how much can HR find out by calling the old firm which I worked for? I don't know what to do. Thanks in advance.
J
Dear J,
First, you can find out what your former HR department will say by calling up and asking them. Most large companies only allow their HR department to confirm dates of employment and titles.
Second, it is always good to be honest. Honesty is the best policy. But, you don't have to tell everyone everything about everyone. If they ask why you left, you don't need to mention the cartoon, you can mention you were terminated. Explain how you've learned a great deal from the experience and you took it as an opportunity to gain your CPA. Then go directly into a discussion of the new qualification you gained since then.
Be positive, not bitter. Focus on your skills. Don't keep thinking that this one blip on you resume will ruin your life. I know many people who have been fired (and by fired, I mean terminated for poor performance and cause, not just laid off) and they've all come away better for it. You can learn and grow from it.
I understand how devastating it is to be fired. Heck, when I was working as a temp I cried when I was told a temp assignment was over. But, trust me, you are not the only person who has ever been fired. Most likely at least one of the people you will be interviewing with has been fired themselves.
I'm sorry you had to go through this. Hopefully, with your new CPA certification on your resume and your past work experience, you'll get over this bump. And by the way, can I ask you a tax question?
Good luck!
Evil HR Lady
Depressing Depression
Hi EvilHRLady,
I was fired after missing 3 weeks of work due to major depression and a bad reaction to the medication I was placed on.
When I was diagnosed, I let my manager and HR Manager know approximately a month and a half prior to getting terminated as I was having problems with insomnia and coming in late.
I supplied them with a doctor's note, but unfortunately my doctor just wrote the dsm-iv diagnosis code and I had to explain it to them in plain english.
A friend has urged me to try to use the ADA to arrange back pay/benefits or perhaps reinstatement with the company. I'm not sure if this is a very good idea (not practical/plausible, perhaps internal talk of it could ruin any future recommendation) since someone else has been hired to replace me.
I also worry about getting re-employed and don't know how to explain the situation to perspective employers.
I am thinking of speaking to my ex-supervisor to see if we can agree upon a more palatable explanation.
I don't think he was apprised of my condition(my manager and supervisor were separate people).
I'm not sure what to do and feel like my career (Software Engineer) and even the possibility of future employment is ruined.
thanks,
sad
Dear Sad,
First of all, your career is not ruined. Depression happens. I don't know if you have a valid ADA claim or not. There are specific rules around it and while depression can qualify under ADA, you may or may not be successful.
I suggest that you look towards moving forward rather than backwards. You can't undo what has been done. Battling will probably not help your depression. (Please keep in mind I'm not a psychologist or therapist or any such thing.) Here is some additional information about finding a job while dealing with a mental illness.
If, prior to your difficulties, you were performing well at work, it may well be worth your time to schedule an appointment with your prior managers. Talk about the probability of coming back and, if that's not possible, what kind of reference they will give you. They may be able to help you find a job and help you network.
I'm sure my fellow HR professionals will have additional advice for you.
Good luck!
Evil HR Lady
I was fired after missing 3 weeks of work due to major depression and a bad reaction to the medication I was placed on.
When I was diagnosed, I let my manager and HR Manager know approximately a month and a half prior to getting terminated as I was having problems with insomnia and coming in late.
I supplied them with a doctor's note, but unfortunately my doctor just wrote the dsm-iv diagnosis code and I had to explain it to them in plain english.
A friend has urged me to try to use the ADA to arrange back pay/benefits or perhaps reinstatement with the company. I'm not sure if this is a very good idea (not practical/plausible, perhaps internal talk of it could ruin any future recommendation) since someone else has been hired to replace me.
I also worry about getting re-employed and don't know how to explain the situation to perspective employers.
I am thinking of speaking to my ex-supervisor to see if we can agree upon a more palatable explanation.
I don't think he was apprised of my condition(my manager and supervisor were separate people).
I'm not sure what to do and feel like my career (Software Engineer) and even the possibility of future employment is ruined.
thanks,
sad
Dear Sad,
First of all, your career is not ruined. Depression happens. I don't know if you have a valid ADA claim or not. There are specific rules around it and while depression can qualify under ADA, you may or may not be successful.
I suggest that you look towards moving forward rather than backwards. You can't undo what has been done. Battling will probably not help your depression. (Please keep in mind I'm not a psychologist or therapist or any such thing.) Here is some additional information about finding a job while dealing with a mental illness.
If, prior to your difficulties, you were performing well at work, it may well be worth your time to schedule an appointment with your prior managers. Talk about the probability of coming back and, if that's not possible, what kind of reference they will give you. They may be able to help you find a job and help you network.
I'm sure my fellow HR professionals will have additional advice for you.
Good luck!
Evil HR Lady
Sunday, April 29, 2007
Are You Working?
Dear Evil HR Lady:
I have a question. I am currently looking for work and have been on a handful of interviews. I have been asked a couple of times if I am currently working which I am not. What is the purpose of this question? I can speculate, but I am just wondering from an hr perspective what is behind it.
Love the site btw.
chris
Dear Chris,
I can only speculate and tell you why I ask the question and what I am looking for. If the answer to, "Are you currently employed?" is no, I'll follow up with, "Why did you leave your last job?" If the answer is yes, I'll follow up with, "Why are you looking to leave your current job?"
Essentially, I'm looking to see what your issues are and what your motivation is to be looking for a job. I personally am very cautious about hiring someone who voluntarily left a job without another one lined up--unless there is a good reason. Was it to increase your education? Great. Was it to stay home with your young children? Great. Was it to travel Europe for a summer? I am so jealous, but I wonder how long you are going to stay with me before taking off again. I recommend the "once in a life time" response in conjunction with that trip.
But, if it's "my manager was a jerk" I'm very nervous. This may be true, but I will not be inclined to offer you employment. And keep in mind this is a very small world and your jerk manager could be my college roommate. (Not likely, by the way, as my college roomates don't live anywhere near me, but you understand the principle involved here.)
For the record, I've had so much experience laying people off that someone who was laid off from their last job doesn't even make me bat an eyelash.
People who have quit multiple jobs without new ones make me very nervous. People who currently have jobs but have been in them for less than 2 years make me nervous. People who were fired for cause make me very nervous.
It's not a secret code question. It tells me a lot about you. So, out of curiousity, why aren't you currently working?
Sincerely,
Evil HR Lady
I have a question. I am currently looking for work and have been on a handful of interviews. I have been asked a couple of times if I am currently working which I am not. What is the purpose of this question? I can speculate, but I am just wondering from an hr perspective what is behind it.
Love the site btw.
chris
Dear Chris,
I can only speculate and tell you why I ask the question and what I am looking for. If the answer to, "Are you currently employed?" is no, I'll follow up with, "Why did you leave your last job?" If the answer is yes, I'll follow up with, "Why are you looking to leave your current job?"
Essentially, I'm looking to see what your issues are and what your motivation is to be looking for a job. I personally am very cautious about hiring someone who voluntarily left a job without another one lined up--unless there is a good reason. Was it to increase your education? Great. Was it to stay home with your young children? Great. Was it to travel Europe for a summer? I am so jealous, but I wonder how long you are going to stay with me before taking off again. I recommend the "once in a life time" response in conjunction with that trip.
But, if it's "my manager was a jerk" I'm very nervous. This may be true, but I will not be inclined to offer you employment. And keep in mind this is a very small world and your jerk manager could be my college roommate. (Not likely, by the way, as my college roomates don't live anywhere near me, but you understand the principle involved here.)
For the record, I've had so much experience laying people off that someone who was laid off from their last job doesn't even make me bat an eyelash.
People who have quit multiple jobs without new ones make me very nervous. People who currently have jobs but have been in them for less than 2 years make me nervous. People who were fired for cause make me very nervous.
It's not a secret code question. It tells me a lot about you. So, out of curiousity, why aren't you currently working?
Sincerely,
Evil HR Lady
Purple!
The real cast is now on and it's purple. And waterproof! This means we can still go swimming and not worry about it getting wet at Disney World.
The Offspring is quite happy with all the attention she is getting for this broken arm. I'm afraid she'll want to do it again.
Saturday, April 28, 2007
Carnival of HR Reminder
Next Wednesday is Carnival time. Get your submissions to humanresources.guide at about dot com!
The May 2nd Carnival will be hosted by Susan Heathfield at About: Human Resources.
The May 16th Carnival will be hosted by Carmen Van Kerckhove at Race in the Workplace.
The May 30th Carnival will be hosted by Deb Owens at 8 Hours & a Lunch.
The June 13th Carnvial will be hosted by Gautam Ghosh at A Management Consultant's Blog.
The June 27th Carnival will be hosted by Kris Dunn at The HR Capitalist.
The July 11th Carnival will be hosted by Lisa Rosendahl at HR Thoughts.
The August 22nd Carnival will be hosted by Wally Bock at Three Star Leadership.
Let me know if any of the rest of you wish to host. Think of the fame and glory that will come your way! You can even put it on your resume: Hosted Carnival of Human Resources. Think of the number of job offers you can get with that!
The May 2nd Carnival will be hosted by Susan Heathfield at About: Human Resources.
The May 16th Carnival will be hosted by Carmen Van Kerckhove at Race in the Workplace.
The May 30th Carnival will be hosted by Deb Owens at 8 Hours & a Lunch.
The June 13th Carnvial will be hosted by Gautam Ghosh at A Management Consultant's Blog.
The June 27th Carnival will be hosted by Kris Dunn at The HR Capitalist.
The July 11th Carnival will be hosted by Lisa Rosendahl at HR Thoughts.
The August 22nd Carnival will be hosted by Wally Bock at Three Star Leadership.
Let me know if any of the rest of you wish to host. Think of the fame and glory that will come your way! You can even put it on your resume: Hosted Carnival of Human Resources. Think of the number of job offers you can get with that!
Friday, April 27, 2007
Pleas Chek Yur Spellin
Dear Evil HR Lady,
Annually my company's HR lady requests us to review and acknowledge reviewing all documents pertaining to corporate policies. She does this without informing us which documents have actually changed forcing us to re-read the same documents every year. It takes days to re-read the documents. My question follows; Do all HR professionals use this ploy to force others to proof read the error ridden gibberish they produce? And how could I apply this proof-read concept onto others for my peer code reviews.
Bitter? Party of one?
I agree that your HR lady is unprofessional. Sending out things that are error ridden is inexcusable. (Although I won't mention that just yesterday someone called me about a general release I had written that said they needed to "executive" the release rather than "execute." Darn non-omniscient spell checker!)
Is she the one who made this policy or does she carry it out? Even though we HR types seem to love paper more than life itself, it's rarely HR that decides such things need to happen. It's usually finance or legal that comes up with the idea that everyone needs to sign off on the Code of Conduct every year. HR has to carry it out and we get blamed for wasting time.
Even so, she should be professional.
Refrain from the urge to fill the documents with red pencil marks. That will just make her angry. Although I do give you permission to tell your staff that they are never to send out something without proper proof-reading.
Now, I'm really scared I've made a spelling or grammatical error in this post. I spell checked on Microsoft Word, and I hope that is enough.
Sincerely,
Evil HR Lady
Annually my company's HR lady requests us to review and acknowledge reviewing all documents pertaining to corporate policies. She does this without informing us which documents have actually changed forcing us to re-read the same documents every year. It takes days to re-read the documents. My question follows; Do all HR professionals use this ploy to force others to proof read the error ridden gibberish they produce? And how could I apply this proof-read concept onto others for my peer code reviews.
Bitter? Party of one?
I agree that your HR lady is unprofessional. Sending out things that are error ridden is inexcusable. (Although I won't mention that just yesterday someone called me about a general release I had written that said they needed to "executive" the release rather than "execute." Darn non-omniscient spell checker!)
Is she the one who made this policy or does she carry it out? Even though we HR types seem to love paper more than life itself, it's rarely HR that decides such things need to happen. It's usually finance or legal that comes up with the idea that everyone needs to sign off on the Code of Conduct every year. HR has to carry it out and we get blamed for wasting time.
Even so, she should be professional.
Refrain from the urge to fill the documents with red pencil marks. That will just make her angry. Although I do give you permission to tell your staff that they are never to send out something without proper proof-reading.
Now, I'm really scared I've made a spelling or grammatical error in this post. I spell checked on Microsoft Word, and I hope that is enough.
Sincerely,
Evil HR Lady
Thursday, April 26, 2007
Boom! Again
Diagnosis: Buckle Fracture. 1.5 weeks before leaving for Disney World. Poor Offspring. It happened while she was (theoretically) watching television. I was cleaning the bathroom.
Lesson from this? I should not do housework.
How Old Are You?
Dear Evil HR Lady,
First, may I just say that I really enjoy reading your blog. It's always funny and informative. Back in college I was an Evil HR Lady Intern for a Fortune 500 company and I actually really enjoyed it but have gone on to a different profession which leads me to my question about my current position (hmm...now I'm wishing that someone had clarified this for me during my internship of evil but, so it goes, I was too busy filing resumes to ask all the astute questions)...
So I've just begun a new job and I'm quite young to have my position. Since the first day that I've started my position I've been asked with some regularity "how old are you?" While I can tell that some of the question askers are just being friendly and curious and are often hoping to then begin telling stories about "back when they started" at our current employer, I sense that others are seeking to gather information about me in not wholly neutral and/or friendly ways.
First question: I've been trying to parry all questions about my age since I recognize that disclosing my age may undermine my authority in some respects. I do this nicely by not directly answering questions and responding to age querries with comments like "well, I've had six years of experience doing the particular job I've been hired to do" or, slightly more irreverently, "oh, I'm ancient but I'm a disciple of vitamins, veggies, and botox". Am I doing the right thing to not directly mention my age? Do these sound like appropriate answers to you if I didn't want to disclose my age or do I sound like I'm being sneaky and unhelpful? What about those who I sense have ulterior motives (e.g. trying to use my age as evidence of a lack of experience)? Any ideas how I should respond to them? Or do you think I should let everyone know my age so that these questions don't get asked any more?
Second, (okay, this is more of a comment) I'm just really weirded out by the number of people who have asked me how old I am. I'm just trying to keep my nose down and do my job but I feel like once I have more seniority it may be a good idea to perhaps raise the issue that questions regarding age, marital status, etc. are somewhat complicated and troublesome. I don't really want my company to get sued for violating any HR confidentiality practices. Should my employer be reminding employees that there are certain questions that they should not ask during the interview process and, more broadly, once new employees are hired? Does the confidentiality of the interview situation apply to all current employees of an organization?
Thanks for your help.
Not sooo young
Dear Youthful One,
Ahh, to have youth instead of just beauty. Or, umm, yeah. First, from a legal standpoint, your age only counts as a protected class if you are over 40, which you are not. From an annoyance standpoint, you've got a case.
I like your responses. I, being more obnoxious than you are, would start answering, "I'll be 62 next week. Can't wait until the grandkids come to visit!" or "I'm 15 and a half. Dad's going to start giving me driving lessons next month!" But, that's why I'm an evil HR Lady and you were only an evil HR Intern.
As I said, your age does not put you in a protected class, but if you find you are being discriminatd against you may wish to take it up to HR. My bet is that the reason your co-workers repeatedly ask you how old you are is because you are doing a fabulous job. If you were acting like they expected a dorky 22 year old to act they wouldn't keep asking. But, because you are performing at a level that seems out of character for your perceived age, they keep asking.
It's bothersome, but I would try to ignore it as best as possible.
While technically, you probably shouldn't go around asking your co-workers and underlings questions that you wouldn't ask in an interview, that's what real life is all about. "Hey, I need Friday off for Good Friday" or, "we're going to my mother-in-law's for Passover" is part of daily conversation, although it reveals your religion. Someone may have a picture of their spouse or partner in their cube. You may have to leave a meeting early to go take some insulin or get something to eat if you are diabetic. You wouldn't bring any of these things up in an interview, but it would be hard to hide them day to day.
And I'm not saying that you should. Your co-workers should all be adults and we should all be able to handle anything about you, as long as you are working hard.
The longer you are there and the more you prove yourself, the less frequent the questions should be. But, remember that co-workers are frequently like mothers. "Why aren't you married?" will change, once you get married, to "When are you and Bill going to have a baby?" and (trust me on this one) once you have a baby the question will be, "So, Offspring is almost 4. Aren't you about ready to have another baby?"
It's life. It's annoying, but there it is!
And all too soon no one will as you your age because you'll look old like me.
Evil HR Lady
First, may I just say that I really enjoy reading your blog. It's always funny and informative. Back in college I was an Evil HR Lady Intern for a Fortune 500 company and I actually really enjoyed it but have gone on to a different profession which leads me to my question about my current position (hmm...now I'm wishing that someone had clarified this for me during my internship of evil but, so it goes, I was too busy filing resumes to ask all the astute questions)...
So I've just begun a new job and I'm quite young to have my position. Since the first day that I've started my position I've been asked with some regularity "how old are you?" While I can tell that some of the question askers are just being friendly and curious and are often hoping to then begin telling stories about "back when they started" at our current employer, I sense that others are seeking to gather information about me in not wholly neutral and/or friendly ways.
First question: I've been trying to parry all questions about my age since I recognize that disclosing my age may undermine my authority in some respects. I do this nicely by not directly answering questions and responding to age querries with comments like "well, I've had six years of experience doing the particular job I've been hired to do" or, slightly more irreverently, "oh, I'm ancient but I'm a disciple of vitamins, veggies, and botox". Am I doing the right thing to not directly mention my age? Do these sound like appropriate answers to you if I didn't want to disclose my age or do I sound like I'm being sneaky and unhelpful? What about those who I sense have ulterior motives (e.g. trying to use my age as evidence of a lack of experience)? Any ideas how I should respond to them? Or do you think I should let everyone know my age so that these questions don't get asked any more?
Second, (okay, this is more of a comment) I'm just really weirded out by the number of people who have asked me how old I am. I'm just trying to keep my nose down and do my job but I feel like once I have more seniority it may be a good idea to perhaps raise the issue that questions regarding age, marital status, etc. are somewhat complicated and troublesome. I don't really want my company to get sued for violating any HR confidentiality practices. Should my employer be reminding employees that there are certain questions that they should not ask during the interview process and, more broadly, once new employees are hired? Does the confidentiality of the interview situation apply to all current employees of an organization?
Thanks for your help.
Not sooo young
Dear Youthful One,
Ahh, to have youth instead of just beauty. Or, umm, yeah. First, from a legal standpoint, your age only counts as a protected class if you are over 40, which you are not. From an annoyance standpoint, you've got a case.
I like your responses. I, being more obnoxious than you are, would start answering, "I'll be 62 next week. Can't wait until the grandkids come to visit!" or "I'm 15 and a half. Dad's going to start giving me driving lessons next month!" But, that's why I'm an evil HR Lady and you were only an evil HR Intern.
As I said, your age does not put you in a protected class, but if you find you are being discriminatd against you may wish to take it up to HR. My bet is that the reason your co-workers repeatedly ask you how old you are is because you are doing a fabulous job. If you were acting like they expected a dorky 22 year old to act they wouldn't keep asking. But, because you are performing at a level that seems out of character for your perceived age, they keep asking.
It's bothersome, but I would try to ignore it as best as possible.
While technically, you probably shouldn't go around asking your co-workers and underlings questions that you wouldn't ask in an interview, that's what real life is all about. "Hey, I need Friday off for Good Friday" or, "we're going to my mother-in-law's for Passover" is part of daily conversation, although it reveals your religion. Someone may have a picture of their spouse or partner in their cube. You may have to leave a meeting early to go take some insulin or get something to eat if you are diabetic. You wouldn't bring any of these things up in an interview, but it would be hard to hide them day to day.
And I'm not saying that you should. Your co-workers should all be adults and we should all be able to handle anything about you, as long as you are working hard.
The longer you are there and the more you prove yourself, the less frequent the questions should be. But, remember that co-workers are frequently like mothers. "Why aren't you married?" will change, once you get married, to "When are you and Bill going to have a baby?" and (trust me on this one) once you have a baby the question will be, "So, Offspring is almost 4. Aren't you about ready to have another baby?"
It's life. It's annoying, but there it is!
And all too soon no one will as you your age because you'll look old like me.
Evil HR Lady
Wednesday, April 25, 2007
Procastination Pays Off
I got the e-mail below on March 29. Somehow, it didn't register in my brain so I didn't respond. Here's the e-mail:
Hi there - love the blog!
The situation is as follows:
Smart, single, long-time employee at management level evades meetings with, but texts senseless messages at odd hours to, his nominal boss. I say nominal because he loves to deal with the boss's boss - and go drinking and partying with that guy. The senior manager agrees the guy doesn't seem to be working much, but wants them all to get along, and give the junior manager more chances. There are lots of strange messages left at the office or at home, when middle is usually available on his cell. This has been going on for a year or so. Middle manager accidentally discovered that junior has quite a debt load, but he is well paid and unencumbered by wife/child/mortgage etc. His erratic behaviour (missed meetings, late arrivals, argumentative and hostile conversations, lack of follow up on business objectives etc.) coupled with the odd finances leads to suspicions about drug use, or maybe gambling. Just where is this money going?
Question: does middle manager wait for junior to implode? Or does he say something to HR? Senior manager will not listen as this is now his favourite drinking buddy and he has never fired anyone, ever (ok, the company has lots of issues, but middle/junior are my focus.) Implosion would get junior out of the company, especially if he started stealing to meet his habit. Middle manager could hire/promote a new person, and start anew.
Any ideas?
Thanks!
Frustrated by-stander
Great question and oops on my part for not noticing. I e-mailed the author back and asked if she still wanted an answer, since it had been so long. Here is the response:
Dear Evil,
Timing is everything! Whilst middle waited for junior to implode (and he was working on it) some of junior's reports staged a coup. They met with HR (in this case, HR is represented by tres cool smart jock type who does not play politics.) They all threatened to quit as they could not deal with the erratic behaviour, and one of them reported a cash stream that mysteriously ballooned after junior handed over the control - to the tune of serious money. In short, middle did not have to go toe-to-toe with the big boss to get this guy fired. They are likely to support him through rehab and hold some sort of job for him, but the stealing is not going to make that easy.
Any comments would be welcomed, as there will be a big post-mortem on this: why it took the line staff to call his bluff etc. when higher-ups could see it, or at least parts of it.
So, that particular problem was solved, but it was solved in entirely the wrong way. Not that Junior's reports did anything wrong. Good for them--somebody needed to deal with it--but they shouldn't have to.
Why do higher-ups ignore problems? The same reason I sometimes pretend I don't notice the offspring eating in the family room. It's against the rules and she shouldn't do it, but sometimes I am just too lazy. Of course, managers are also scared. What if they guy freaks out? He's already proven himself unstable--plus he's buddy buddy with the head honcho. They are taking a huge risk in doing something.
Of course, it's exactly situations like this that we pay managers to handle. If you can't handle it, you shouldn't be in management.
As for the big boss--he needs to cultivate a company culture where people can come to him with problems without getting in trouble. The fact that the problem employee was good friends with the big boss shouldn't insulate him. And, ultimately it didn't.
The fact that problems got solved by the underlings taking matters into their own hands means that there was a misperception among middle management on how senior management would react.
The first thing I would look at is communication in your company/department. And then a good hard look at culture--is merit what matters, or is it knowing the right person? Are your managers trained to deal with such things or are they promoted because they were good at "doing" and just thrown into managing? (That's how most companies do it, by the way.
I'm glad junior got help. And I apologize for procastinating. But, hey, why do today what I can put off until tomorrow?
Hi there - love the blog!
The situation is as follows:
Smart, single, long-time employee at management level evades meetings with, but texts senseless messages at odd hours to, his nominal boss. I say nominal because he loves to deal with the boss's boss - and go drinking and partying with that guy. The senior manager agrees the guy doesn't seem to be working much, but wants them all to get along, and give the junior manager more chances. There are lots of strange messages left at the office or at home, when middle is usually available on his cell. This has been going on for a year or so. Middle manager accidentally discovered that junior has quite a debt load, but he is well paid and unencumbered by wife/child/mortgage etc. His erratic behaviour (missed meetings, late arrivals, argumentative and hostile conversations, lack of follow up on business objectives etc.) coupled with the odd finances leads to suspicions about drug use, or maybe gambling. Just where is this money going?
Question: does middle manager wait for junior to implode? Or does he say something to HR? Senior manager will not listen as this is now his favourite drinking buddy and he has never fired anyone, ever (ok, the company has lots of issues, but middle/junior are my focus.) Implosion would get junior out of the company, especially if he started stealing to meet his habit. Middle manager could hire/promote a new person, and start anew.
Any ideas?
Thanks!
Frustrated by-stander
Great question and oops on my part for not noticing. I e-mailed the author back and asked if she still wanted an answer, since it had been so long. Here is the response:
Dear Evil,
Timing is everything! Whilst middle waited for junior to implode (and he was working on it) some of junior's reports staged a coup. They met with HR (in this case, HR is represented by tres cool smart jock type who does not play politics.) They all threatened to quit as they could not deal with the erratic behaviour, and one of them reported a cash stream that mysteriously ballooned after junior handed over the control - to the tune of serious money. In short, middle did not have to go toe-to-toe with the big boss to get this guy fired. They are likely to support him through rehab and hold some sort of job for him, but the stealing is not going to make that easy.
Any comments would be welcomed, as there will be a big post-mortem on this: why it took the line staff to call his bluff etc. when higher-ups could see it, or at least parts of it.
So, that particular problem was solved, but it was solved in entirely the wrong way. Not that Junior's reports did anything wrong. Good for them--somebody needed to deal with it--but they shouldn't have to.
Why do higher-ups ignore problems? The same reason I sometimes pretend I don't notice the offspring eating in the family room. It's against the rules and she shouldn't do it, but sometimes I am just too lazy. Of course, managers are also scared. What if they guy freaks out? He's already proven himself unstable--plus he's buddy buddy with the head honcho. They are taking a huge risk in doing something.
Of course, it's exactly situations like this that we pay managers to handle. If you can't handle it, you shouldn't be in management.
As for the big boss--he needs to cultivate a company culture where people can come to him with problems without getting in trouble. The fact that the problem employee was good friends with the big boss shouldn't insulate him. And, ultimately it didn't.
The fact that problems got solved by the underlings taking matters into their own hands means that there was a misperception among middle management on how senior management would react.
The first thing I would look at is communication in your company/department. And then a good hard look at culture--is merit what matters, or is it knowing the right person? Are your managers trained to deal with such things or are they promoted because they were good at "doing" and just thrown into managing? (That's how most companies do it, by the way.
I'm glad junior got help. And I apologize for procastinating. But, hey, why do today what I can put off until tomorrow?
Tuesday, April 24, 2007
Why Are We Doing That?
I drive past a school on my way to work. The school zone lights flash and the speed limit is 15. This is good. I prefer not to have any small children run over. However, during spring break, the school was not open. Still, the lights flashed and we drivers dutifully tooled along at 15 mph.
I started to think about why we were doing that. But, that was the wrong question. We drivers were going 15 mph because it was the law. We had to. The real question was why the sign was still flashing?
Well, because it's programmed for Monday-Friday during the school year. That's why. No one changed it, just because school wasn't in session.
The next week at work we (meaning my department) spent 2 full days (9 people at a time) stuffing envelopes that contained individualized information for each manager. Back in the dark ages, this was the only way the managers could get this particular tidbit of information. But now, thanks to the wonders of the Internet, this exact same information is available to each manager who bothers to log on and enter their password.
Why were we stuffing envelopes? Because we do every year at this time. Like the flashing school lights, they should have been turned off when the situation changed. But they weren't. We've always done it, so dang it, we're going to keep doing it!
And we tool along at 15 mph rather than saying, "Hey, circumstances have changed. No one is going to get run over! My car is capable of going 45 mph, let's do it!"
What is your company still doing that they really should give up?
I started to think about why we were doing that. But, that was the wrong question. We drivers were going 15 mph because it was the law. We had to. The real question was why the sign was still flashing?
Well, because it's programmed for Monday-Friday during the school year. That's why. No one changed it, just because school wasn't in session.
The next week at work we (meaning my department) spent 2 full days (9 people at a time) stuffing envelopes that contained individualized information for each manager. Back in the dark ages, this was the only way the managers could get this particular tidbit of information. But now, thanks to the wonders of the Internet, this exact same information is available to each manager who bothers to log on and enter their password.
Why were we stuffing envelopes? Because we do every year at this time. Like the flashing school lights, they should have been turned off when the situation changed. But they weren't. We've always done it, so dang it, we're going to keep doing it!
And we tool along at 15 mph rather than saying, "Hey, circumstances have changed. No one is going to get run over! My car is capable of going 45 mph, let's do it!"
What is your company still doing that they really should give up?
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