Hopefully, I've cleared up any confusion.
No lying.
*If your Aunt is named something other than "Grace" you can't lie, ever.
Showing posts sorted by relevance for query lie. Sort by date Show all posts
Showing posts sorted by relevance for query lie. Sort by date Show all posts
Wednesday, October 18, 2006
How Often Should You Lie?
The only acceptable lie is when your Aunt Grace* asked if you enjoyed her special dish at the family reunion. Other than that, never.
Don't lie on your resume.
Don't lie in an interview.
Don't lie in your performance review.
Don't lie about why you need a day off. (You don't necessarily have to say why you need a day off, but don't say, "my grandmother is sick" when you really have a job interview. It's perfectly acceptable to say, "for personal reasons.")
Don't lie about why you left your last job.
Don't lie about your gaps in employment.
Don't lie about your salary, your qualifications, your workload or anything else.
Hopefully, I've cleared up any confusion.
No lying.
*If your Aunt is named something other than "Grace" you can't lie, ever.
Hopefully, I've cleared up any confusion.
No lying.
*If your Aunt is named something other than "Grace" you can't lie, ever.
Tuesday, May 15, 2007
What Can HR Divulge?
Hi, what information can HR give out when they get a call from the future employer (in California)? Can they give out the current salary and the information why somebody was fired?
Having never lived in California (and truthfully, hoping to never live in California), I have little knowledge of California laws. So, these are general principles, which will, hopefully, be helpful.
To my knowledge, there is no law that dictates what a company can and cannot say about a former employee. Theoretically, they could give details about your termination. In practice, one too many employee has sued because of a bad reference and few companies divulge that information. Most HR departments, when asked, will confirm dates of service and last title.
Note that I said confirm. This means that if I call up and say, "When did John Doe work for you and what was his title?" they won't answer. But, if I say, "I'm doing a reference check on John Doe. I have that he worked for you from June of 1998 to August 2006 and that his last job title was Sr. Director, New Products. Is that correct?" They'll either say, "yes" or "no."
But, the real answer to your question is, if you want to know what a former company will say about you, then call them up and ask. You can say, "This is John Doe and I want to know what you would say about me in a reference check." Or, you can just say you are checking references for John Doe. Go ahead and ask, "why did he leave?" They'll either answer or say, "we don't release that information."
But, I get the sense that you are hoping to be able to lie about why your employment was unceremoniously terminated. Don't. It will come back to bite you. I promise. The business world is surprisingly small. Any lie you make will be exposed. Do not risk it. Just, don't.
As for dollar amounts, most companies won't reveal salary information (see above). However, as a warning, some companies require W2s from your previous job. I guess it saves them the phone calls.
So, call and ask, but don't lie.
Having never lived in California (and truthfully, hoping to never live in California), I have little knowledge of California laws. So, these are general principles, which will, hopefully, be helpful.
To my knowledge, there is no law that dictates what a company can and cannot say about a former employee. Theoretically, they could give details about your termination. In practice, one too many employee has sued because of a bad reference and few companies divulge that information. Most HR departments, when asked, will confirm dates of service and last title.
Note that I said confirm. This means that if I call up and say, "When did John Doe work for you and what was his title?" they won't answer. But, if I say, "I'm doing a reference check on John Doe. I have that he worked for you from June of 1998 to August 2006 and that his last job title was Sr. Director, New Products. Is that correct?" They'll either say, "yes" or "no."
But, the real answer to your question is, if you want to know what a former company will say about you, then call them up and ask. You can say, "This is John Doe and I want to know what you would say about me in a reference check." Or, you can just say you are checking references for John Doe. Go ahead and ask, "why did he leave?" They'll either answer or say, "we don't release that information."
But, I get the sense that you are hoping to be able to lie about why your employment was unceremoniously terminated. Don't. It will come back to bite you. I promise. The business world is surprisingly small. Any lie you make will be exposed. Do not risk it. Just, don't.
As for dollar amounts, most companies won't reveal salary information (see above). However, as a warning, some companies require W2s from your previous job. I guess it saves them the phone calls.
So, call and ask, but don't lie.
Monday, June 18, 2007
Why You Shouldn't Lie
Lying--and why you shouldn't do it--has been somewhat of a theme of this blog. I get lots of hits from Google of people querying whether they can lie about salary, jobs or any other job related thing. The answer is no. You will be busted. And I have a story.
I teach the adult Sunday School class at church. Yesterday we had a bunch of visitors from two states away who were up in our neck of the woods for a Boy Scout camp out. The Scout leaders were in my class.
After Sunday School was done, one of these visitors came up and said, "you remind me so much of a Sunday School Teacher I had 20 years ago. I forget her name, but her husband was [my father's name]. So, it turns out that my mother was his Sunday School teacher 20 years ago, and I looked and acted enough like her that he felt compelled to tell me.
He had no idea who I was--not only was I a child back then, I now have a different last name and I go by my full first name rather than the nickname I used back then, and I was raised in the West and now live in the East. My point? It's a small world. You will run into people who know you or your relatives. You can't expect to keep things secret. As soon as you say, "I was making $120,000 a year at my previous job," your former boss will waltz down the hallway and see you.
So don't lie. You never know who that person in the back row is. I certainly didn't recognize him. It's a good thing I didn't say or do anything that would embarrass my mother.
I hope.
I teach the adult Sunday School class at church. Yesterday we had a bunch of visitors from two states away who were up in our neck of the woods for a Boy Scout camp out. The Scout leaders were in my class.
After Sunday School was done, one of these visitors came up and said, "you remind me so much of a Sunday School Teacher I had 20 years ago. I forget her name, but her husband was [my father's name]. So, it turns out that my mother was his Sunday School teacher 20 years ago, and I looked and acted enough like her that he felt compelled to tell me.
He had no idea who I was--not only was I a child back then, I now have a different last name and I go by my full first name rather than the nickname I used back then, and I was raised in the West and now live in the East. My point? It's a small world. You will run into people who know you or your relatives. You can't expect to keep things secret. As soon as you say, "I was making $120,000 a year at my previous job," your former boss will waltz down the hallway and see you.
So don't lie. You never know who that person in the back row is. I certainly didn't recognize him. It's a good thing I didn't say or do anything that would embarrass my mother.
I hope.
Thursday, January 31, 2008
Fired, Now What?
Hi Evil HR Lady,
In May I graduated college and found a full time job with a large firm in town. One month into the job, I came down with mono and an infected liver. On doctor's orders I was out of work for five weeks and my supervisors and HR at work were all very supportive and even suggested that I apply for short-term disability. Right before my illness, another person was hired in our department who can basically do all of the work that I did but more as he has a higher degree and more experience than me.
Also, the GIS (a computer program) person went part-time and I was given the majority of his work. When I was hired, I made it very clear that my GIS experience was very limited and they said that I would only be assisting this person with 10 hours per week. When I came back from sick leave, I found that I was spending 30 hours per week doing GIS work. I talked to the GIS person to make sure he knew that our supervisors were aware of my limited experience (he was the one who interviewed me on those skills in the first place). He said that they were and that he would talk to one of our supervisors about it. When he did, the supervisor had no idea that they were giving me work that I didn't know how to do and said she would get it resolved. Two weeks later, I was terminated due to an email I replied to. In this email, the administrative assistant revealed our boss's expense report information to me. I didn't get along well with this girl and usually tried to humor her in order for her to leave me alone and since I replied saying how surprised I was at one of the expenses (no foul language, no name calling, no negativity), the termination was justified because HR felt that "the e-mail showed how unhappy" I was at the company.
Up until this point, I had received plenty of "job well done" emails from my superiors and at no point did my supervisors talk to me about email use, my attitude, my interactions or my appearance while this other girl had repeated warnings that she was not doing her job correctly.
As soon as my coworkers found out (from an office-wide email) they all called me up and offered support and good recommendations. Three of them even emailed the office manager saying how pleasant I was to work with and what a good worker I was. Everyone was shocked that I was fired along with the admin girl, including myself.
My question is: What do I put on my resume and applications for new jobs? I know you repeatedly say not to lie on your blog and while I am usually the most truthful person you will find, you have said that you are very uncomfortable hiring someone who was fired with cause. Technically I was fired with cause, but the reason for termination was so ludicrous that one of my former coworkers is more than willing to give me a recommendation and he even suggested that he be my "supervisor reference". He technically did supervise me on projects and believes that I was not fired justly. He is a senior employee, although much lower on the pole than my real boss.
You are right, I will recommend that you not lie. However, unlike your parents, who didn't take "but you didn't ask if I was attending calculus every day, you just asked if I was showing up and I did, twice, last week," as an appropriate answer, companies don't require that you voluntarily reveal everything.
Yes, you can leave this job off your resume and explain that shortly after graduating you got mono and were very ill blah, blah, blah. However, you did gain some valuable experience in that job.
I'm not going to second guess why they terminated you. (Although saying that it was because of the e-mail and then saying that the e-mail showed how unhappy you were is a really lame reason. Darn HR types!) Instead, let's move forward.
Including the job on your resume says you gained experience in your field--and in a related field (which can only help you!)--will probably benefit you on your current job hunt. You don't have to list a reason for leaving on your resume. In fact, I would think it was strange.
On an application, you may have to list a reason for leaving. Most companies don't have you fill out an application until you show up for the interview. Which means, you get a chance to verbally explain rather than having to fit why you were terminated in a little box.
The interviewer (either staffing, hiring manager or another interviewer) will say, "Why did you leave your last job after such a short time?"
This is something you need to be prepared to answer. Your answer needs to be truthful, but you can certainly spin it your way. Whatever you do, don't say, "well, there was this admin that nobody liked and plus they dumped GIS work on me that I wasn't prepared for and blah, blah, blah."
Instead try, "I was hired to do X and unfortunately I caught mono and was out for 6 weeks. During that time, someone else took over the majority of my responsibilities, so when I came back I was assigned to GIS work. Unfortunately, that is not my forte, and things didn't work out very well. I'm eager to start a new job doing X again, although I wouldn't mind learning more about GIS."
You can list the project supervisor who volunteered to serve as a reference. List him as a "project supervisor," though, not just a generic supervisor. And let him know that you've listed him as a project supervisor. That way, he won't attempt to lie for you. Since this is your first job out of college, listing a college professor or previous boss and then two people you worked with at this company should allay fears that you are some sort of slacker.
Mismatches happen. Normal people understand that. Hopefully you'll be able to land a new job quickly!
In May I graduated college and found a full time job with a large firm in town. One month into the job, I came down with mono and an infected liver. On doctor's orders I was out of work for five weeks and my supervisors and HR at work were all very supportive and even suggested that I apply for short-term disability. Right before my illness, another person was hired in our department who can basically do all of the work that I did but more as he has a higher degree and more experience than me.
Also, the GIS (a computer program) person went part-time and I was given the majority of his work. When I was hired, I made it very clear that my GIS experience was very limited and they said that I would only be assisting this person with 10 hours per week. When I came back from sick leave, I found that I was spending 30 hours per week doing GIS work. I talked to the GIS person to make sure he knew that our supervisors were aware of my limited experience (he was the one who interviewed me on those skills in the first place). He said that they were and that he would talk to one of our supervisors about it. When he did, the supervisor had no idea that they were giving me work that I didn't know how to do and said she would get it resolved. Two weeks later, I was terminated due to an email I replied to. In this email, the administrative assistant revealed our boss's expense report information to me. I didn't get along well with this girl and usually tried to humor her in order for her to leave me alone and since I replied saying how surprised I was at one of the expenses (no foul language, no name calling, no negativity), the termination was justified because HR felt that "the e-mail showed how unhappy" I was at the company.
Up until this point, I had received plenty of "job well done" emails from my superiors and at no point did my supervisors talk to me about email use, my attitude, my interactions or my appearance while this other girl had repeated warnings that she was not doing her job correctly.
As soon as my coworkers found out (from an office-wide email) they all called me up and offered support and good recommendations. Three of them even emailed the office manager saying how pleasant I was to work with and what a good worker I was. Everyone was shocked that I was fired along with the admin girl, including myself.
My question is: What do I put on my resume and applications for new jobs? I know you repeatedly say not to lie on your blog and while I am usually the most truthful person you will find, you have said that you are very uncomfortable hiring someone who was fired with cause. Technically I was fired with cause, but the reason for termination was so ludicrous that one of my former coworkers is more than willing to give me a recommendation and he even suggested that he be my "supervisor reference". He technically did supervise me on projects and believes that I was not fired justly. He is a senior employee, although much lower on the pole than my real boss.
You are right, I will recommend that you not lie. However, unlike your parents, who didn't take "but you didn't ask if I was attending calculus every day, you just asked if I was showing up and I did, twice, last week," as an appropriate answer, companies don't require that you voluntarily reveal everything.
Yes, you can leave this job off your resume and explain that shortly after graduating you got mono and were very ill blah, blah, blah. However, you did gain some valuable experience in that job.
I'm not going to second guess why they terminated you. (Although saying that it was because of the e-mail and then saying that the e-mail showed how unhappy you were is a really lame reason. Darn HR types!) Instead, let's move forward.
Including the job on your resume says you gained experience in your field--and in a related field (which can only help you!)--will probably benefit you on your current job hunt. You don't have to list a reason for leaving on your resume. In fact, I would think it was strange.
On an application, you may have to list a reason for leaving. Most companies don't have you fill out an application until you show up for the interview. Which means, you get a chance to verbally explain rather than having to fit why you were terminated in a little box.
The interviewer (either staffing, hiring manager or another interviewer) will say, "Why did you leave your last job after such a short time?"
This is something you need to be prepared to answer. Your answer needs to be truthful, but you can certainly spin it your way. Whatever you do, don't say, "well, there was this admin that nobody liked and plus they dumped GIS work on me that I wasn't prepared for and blah, blah, blah."
Instead try, "I was hired to do X and unfortunately I caught mono and was out for 6 weeks. During that time, someone else took over the majority of my responsibilities, so when I came back I was assigned to GIS work. Unfortunately, that is not my forte, and things didn't work out very well. I'm eager to start a new job doing X again, although I wouldn't mind learning more about GIS."
You can list the project supervisor who volunteered to serve as a reference. List him as a "project supervisor," though, not just a generic supervisor. And let him know that you've listed him as a project supervisor. That way, he won't attempt to lie for you. Since this is your first job out of college, listing a college professor or previous boss and then two people you worked with at this company should allay fears that you are some sort of slacker.
Mismatches happen. Normal people understand that. Hopefully you'll be able to land a new job quickly!
Friday, May 30, 2008
Lying Liars
My question pertains to terminating an employee for lying on their application. Does it matter how the company found out they lied? Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
Your question intrigues me because I'm trying to figure out how you found out about a lie in such a way that you are afraid to present the information as a reason for termination.
Keep in mind that private businesses aren't subject to rules of evidence that courts of law are. But, as a general rule, you don't want to accept heresay evidence for something as serious as a termination.
Generally, lying on an application shouldn't be an issue by the time someone is hired. Why? Because you should have done your background checks. These checks should include convictions, education and past employment. You should do at least employment verification checks with your candidates--did they really have the jobs they said they did?
But, something fell through the cracks and now something has come to your attention. If another employee came up to you and whispered in your ear, "hey, I worked with Joe at another company and he was fired for stealing computers," you may want to look into that allegation, but keep in mind that unless that other employee was directly involved with Joe's original termination, he could be 100% wrong.
Gossip is a very bad thing to base a decision on. Gossip cannot be trusted and should be independently verified before you make decisions. Keep in mind, that even if Joe did steal the computers, he may have negotiated a voluntary termination reason from the former employer and since he wasn't convicted of anything, he really didn't lie on his application.
You do want to make sure that you are treating all employees equally. Why are you digging more into this employee's application? If you are an equal opportunity digger, then go ahead.
If you don't feel like you have a rock solid case of lying, but you really, truly, believe your source and want to terminate, I suggest doing so with severance and having the employee sign a general release. Severance can make people go away quietly.
And for heaven's sake, do your indepth background checks before making the offer (or after making the offer, but make the offer contingent on a positive outcome). No one wants to hire liars and getting rid of one can get expensive. (Even if you are correct and the employee lied, it doesn't mean there won't be lawsuits and lawyers and severance payments involved. Is that worth the $100 you saved by not running a background check?)
Your question intrigues me because I'm trying to figure out how you found out about a lie in such a way that you are afraid to present the information as a reason for termination.
Keep in mind that private businesses aren't subject to rules of evidence that courts of law are. But, as a general rule, you don't want to accept heresay evidence for something as serious as a termination.
Generally, lying on an application shouldn't be an issue by the time someone is hired. Why? Because you should have done your background checks. These checks should include convictions, education and past employment. You should do at least employment verification checks with your candidates--did they really have the jobs they said they did?
But, something fell through the cracks and now something has come to your attention. If another employee came up to you and whispered in your ear, "hey, I worked with Joe at another company and he was fired for stealing computers," you may want to look into that allegation, but keep in mind that unless that other employee was directly involved with Joe's original termination, he could be 100% wrong.
Gossip is a very bad thing to base a decision on. Gossip cannot be trusted and should be independently verified before you make decisions. Keep in mind, that even if Joe did steal the computers, he may have negotiated a voluntary termination reason from the former employer and since he wasn't convicted of anything, he really didn't lie on his application.
You do want to make sure that you are treating all employees equally. Why are you digging more into this employee's application? If you are an equal opportunity digger, then go ahead.
If you don't feel like you have a rock solid case of lying, but you really, truly, believe your source and want to terminate, I suggest doing so with severance and having the employee sign a general release. Severance can make people go away quietly.
And for heaven's sake, do your indepth background checks before making the offer (or after making the offer, but make the offer contingent on a positive outcome). No one wants to hire liars and getting rid of one can get expensive. (Even if you are correct and the employee lied, it doesn't mean there won't be lawsuits and lawyers and severance payments involved. Is that worth the $100 you saved by not running a background check?)
Monday, January 10, 2011
Managers: Are You Spying On Your Employees?
Have you ever called in sick when you were perfectly healthy? Of course not. You would never do that. You love going to work and would never lie. It’s those darn employees of yours who are claiming illness while mountain climbing.
Companies, according to Business Week, are hiring private detectives to track down people who are lying about why they aren’t at work. Good, let’s get those weasely employees back on task, right?
Which brings me to a question: What kind of organization are you running that people feel the only way to get a day off is to lie about it?
read more at Managers: Are You Spying On Your Employees?
Companies, according to Business Week, are hiring private detectives to track down people who are lying about why they aren’t at work. Good, let’s get those weasely employees back on task, right?
Which brings me to a question: What kind of organization are you running that people feel the only way to get a day off is to lie about it?
read more at Managers: Are You Spying On Your Employees?
Wednesday, June 13, 2007
Why Do They Do That? or Recruiters--Again
Dear EvilHRLady,
I burned-out a couple of years ago in my first attempt at a management job and have struggled at work trying to do the best I could. I finally decided that I had to have a change and quit my job about a month ago.
I've been trying hard searching for a new job and I've got some calls but then things go badly. I've received two calls now saying that they want me in for an interview and that they will e-mail me the details but then I get no e-mail information and when I call to confirm the interview the time is changed (again and again until I finally give up).
I don't understand what is going on and if they don't want to interview me, why call in the first place? I don't think my former work place would sabotage me but I'm starting to feel that way. I haven't lied on my resume (although I leave off the six months as a manager since I really don't want a management position anyhow).
Am I doing something wrong? Why would HR do this? The second time it happened the job offer came through a trusted friend and the HR person was very nice.
Thank you.
Regular readers know that I'm not fond of recruiters. Because of that I'm dying to blame this all on the recruiters. (Note, I am not using the term HR because HR does so much more than recruit. For instance, we also fire people and make bad vacation policies.)
But first, we must deal with our question writer.
Your first mistake was quitting without having another job lined up. It is always easier to find a job when you have a job.
Second, put your management job back on your resume. Otherwise, you have 7 months of unemployment to explain away. And if the question comes up, "what have you been doing for the past 7 months" you either have to lie (you'll get caught) or confess that you purposely left off a job. This makes us HR types very curious and more likely to probe into that job.
A better idea? Be upfront. "I had a management position at Company X and it turns out that I'm a fabulous individual contributor, but only a mediocre manager. My strengths lie in doing the work, rather than managing others. Let me tell you about some of the things I can do for your company."
Companies really are starting to realize that a non-management track is a fabulous idea, so you may find things look up for you when you start admitting that is what you want--to be an individual contributor.
And now to blame the recruiters. They are desperate to fill the position, so yes, they notice that you fit the qualifications and so they call you to schedule without consulting the hiring manager. Or, they didn't notice the 7 month gap on your resume. After they called you, they realized they didn't want to interview you. Rather than having the guts to say so, they just lead you on until you stop calling back.
Or, your prior company is sabotaging you--which is unlikely, since you don't have it on your resume.
Or, you've just been hit by bad luck. Positions frequently get put on hold after candidates have been contacted. It may open up again so they don't want to tell you no only to have the position open again.
See, it's not all the fault of the recruiter. There are a ton of players in the hiring game and anyone of them can mess it up for you.
Go and re-write your resume and then hop on over to Ask a Manager and read about cover letters. Write a fabulous one for each job you are applying to. If you don't know how to write one, harrass our friendly manager and maybe (please!) he'll give us a sample one.
I burned-out a couple of years ago in my first attempt at a management job and have struggled at work trying to do the best I could. I finally decided that I had to have a change and quit my job about a month ago.
I've been trying hard searching for a new job and I've got some calls but then things go badly. I've received two calls now saying that they want me in for an interview and that they will e-mail me the details but then I get no e-mail information and when I call to confirm the interview the time is changed (again and again until I finally give up).
I don't understand what is going on and if they don't want to interview me, why call in the first place? I don't think my former work place would sabotage me but I'm starting to feel that way. I haven't lied on my resume (although I leave off the six months as a manager since I really don't want a management position anyhow).
Am I doing something wrong? Why would HR do this? The second time it happened the job offer came through a trusted friend and the HR person was very nice.
Thank you.
Regular readers know that I'm not fond of recruiters. Because of that I'm dying to blame this all on the recruiters. (Note, I am not using the term HR because HR does so much more than recruit. For instance, we also fire people and make bad vacation policies.)
But first, we must deal with our question writer.
Your first mistake was quitting without having another job lined up. It is always easier to find a job when you have a job.
Second, put your management job back on your resume. Otherwise, you have 7 months of unemployment to explain away. And if the question comes up, "what have you been doing for the past 7 months" you either have to lie (you'll get caught) or confess that you purposely left off a job. This makes us HR types very curious and more likely to probe into that job.
A better idea? Be upfront. "I had a management position at Company X and it turns out that I'm a fabulous individual contributor, but only a mediocre manager. My strengths lie in doing the work, rather than managing others. Let me tell you about some of the things I can do for your company."
Companies really are starting to realize that a non-management track is a fabulous idea, so you may find things look up for you when you start admitting that is what you want--to be an individual contributor.
And now to blame the recruiters. They are desperate to fill the position, so yes, they notice that you fit the qualifications and so they call you to schedule without consulting the hiring manager. Or, they didn't notice the 7 month gap on your resume. After they called you, they realized they didn't want to interview you. Rather than having the guts to say so, they just lead you on until you stop calling back.
Or, your prior company is sabotaging you--which is unlikely, since you don't have it on your resume.
Or, you've just been hit by bad luck. Positions frequently get put on hold after candidates have been contacted. It may open up again so they don't want to tell you no only to have the position open again.
See, it's not all the fault of the recruiter. There are a ton of players in the hiring game and anyone of them can mess it up for you.
Go and re-write your resume and then hop on over to Ask a Manager and read about cover letters. Write a fabulous one for each job you are applying to. If you don't know how to write one, harrass our friendly manager and maybe (please!) he'll give us a sample one.
Friday, July 06, 2007
Title Mania
Hello-
I have an extremely ambiguous position and non fitting job title. And I'm looking for a new job. I read in a previous post that it's your company policy to only disclose title and dates. Due to this, issue I am altering my title to reflect the tasks applicable to the job I am applying for. (interactive marketing specialist when applying for an interactive marketing role). I don't lie about the actual role or what I accomplished, but just the title. I don't want to talk to HR or my boss about changing it, because I fear that they will see no real need for me and fire me.
1. Is this a common practice? What is the law on HR disclosing information about previous employees?
2. If a potential employer finds out about this, what are the chances that I will have a chance to explain?
Thank you!
p.s. I love the blog. It's insanely informative!
Titles are a funny thing. I once had the title, Functional Lead. What in the heck does that mean? Really. I could never place it on salary surveys. I hated putting it on my resume because it meant nothing.
On the other hand, when my husband was only 1.5 years out of school he got a job offer with an advertising agency. His proposed title? AVP. Wow, you are all saying, impressive to be an Assistant Vice President only 1.5 years out of school! Except that because it was an advertising agency everyone's title was inflated because clients don't want to meet with a junior person.
When I worked for a very small company the Sr. Vice Presidents all made between $60,000 and $70,000 per year. Now that I work for a Fortune 500 company the Sr. Vice Presidents make---well, lets just say a lot more than that.
My point on all of this? Titles don't matter as much as you think they do. Granted, it's an easy way to figure out what someone did at a quick glance but any competent recruiter will know to look beyond title.
My standard reply is don't lie. It can only lead to trouble.
However, titles in systems (what a call to HR would verify) are not necessarily what is on your business card. For instance, 3 people may have the identical title of Director, Marketing. Those three people may have on their business cards, Director, New Product Marketing; Director, Market Research; and Director, Marketing Acquisitions. It would not be lying for these three to put this title on their resumes.
The question to ask yourself is, "if they called my current boss to verify my title and they read off what I have on my resume, would he say 'yes' or 'no.' If it's no, then don't do it.
You said, as an example that you used the title "interactive marketing specialist," but you didn't specify what your true title was. If it's "marketing specialist" then you are okay. If it's "specialist" then it's okay. If it's "Accountant", then you are not okay. If it is "Accountant," I would write on your resume. Accountant (interactive marketing specialist) 2003-Present.
Now, as to answer the explicit questions you asked.
1. There is no law saying what can and cannot be disclosed, but there are things most companies will and will not do. SHRM encourages companies to relay information about the person's performance--things that are documented that is. And while most companies have explicit policies on what can and cannot be shared by HR, most reference checkers are going to be calling your former boss anyway and it's doubtful he cares what the rules are.
2. Anytime you need to ask the question "what bad thing will happen if I do this?" you should rethink doing it. If I feel like you've lied you won't get the job and you'll probably get fired.
Unless your boss and HR are extremely vindictive and looking out for a reason to fire you, I don't understand why going to them about a potential title change would result in ill feelings. I would approach it this way. "Bob, you know, my title is Accountant and I haven't done any accounting in years. I'm really more of an interactive marketing specialist. Would it be possible to update my title to reflect that?"
If you really feel like you'd get fired for that, then don't, but otherwise, what do you have to lose?
I have an extremely ambiguous position and non fitting job title. And I'm looking for a new job. I read in a previous post that it's your company policy to only disclose title and dates. Due to this, issue I am altering my title to reflect the tasks applicable to the job I am applying for. (interactive marketing specialist when applying for an interactive marketing role). I don't lie about the actual role or what I accomplished, but just the title. I don't want to talk to HR or my boss about changing it, because I fear that they will see no real need for me and fire me.
1. Is this a common practice? What is the law on HR disclosing information about previous employees?
2. If a potential employer finds out about this, what are the chances that I will have a chance to explain?
Thank you!
p.s. I love the blog. It's insanely informative!
Titles are a funny thing. I once had the title, Functional Lead. What in the heck does that mean? Really. I could never place it on salary surveys. I hated putting it on my resume because it meant nothing.
On the other hand, when my husband was only 1.5 years out of school he got a job offer with an advertising agency. His proposed title? AVP. Wow, you are all saying, impressive to be an Assistant Vice President only 1.5 years out of school! Except that because it was an advertising agency everyone's title was inflated because clients don't want to meet with a junior person.
When I worked for a very small company the Sr. Vice Presidents all made between $60,000 and $70,000 per year. Now that I work for a Fortune 500 company the Sr. Vice Presidents make---well, lets just say a lot more than that.
My point on all of this? Titles don't matter as much as you think they do. Granted, it's an easy way to figure out what someone did at a quick glance but any competent recruiter will know to look beyond title.
My standard reply is don't lie. It can only lead to trouble.
However, titles in systems (what a call to HR would verify) are not necessarily what is on your business card. For instance, 3 people may have the identical title of Director, Marketing. Those three people may have on their business cards, Director, New Product Marketing; Director, Market Research; and Director, Marketing Acquisitions. It would not be lying for these three to put this title on their resumes.
The question to ask yourself is, "if they called my current boss to verify my title and they read off what I have on my resume, would he say 'yes' or 'no.' If it's no, then don't do it.
You said, as an example that you used the title "interactive marketing specialist," but you didn't specify what your true title was. If it's "marketing specialist" then you are okay. If it's "specialist" then it's okay. If it's "Accountant", then you are not okay. If it is "Accountant," I would write on your resume. Accountant (interactive marketing specialist) 2003-Present.
Now, as to answer the explicit questions you asked.
1. There is no law saying what can and cannot be disclosed, but there are things most companies will and will not do. SHRM encourages companies to relay information about the person's performance--things that are documented that is. And while most companies have explicit policies on what can and cannot be shared by HR, most reference checkers are going to be calling your former boss anyway and it's doubtful he cares what the rules are.
2. Anytime you need to ask the question "what bad thing will happen if I do this?" you should rethink doing it. If I feel like you've lied you won't get the job and you'll probably get fired.
Unless your boss and HR are extremely vindictive and looking out for a reason to fire you, I don't understand why going to them about a potential title change would result in ill feelings. I would approach it this way. "Bob, you know, my title is Accountant and I haven't done any accounting in years. I'm really more of an interactive marketing specialist. Would it be possible to update my title to reflect that?"
If you really feel like you'd get fired for that, then don't, but otherwise, what do you have to lose?
Monday, May 16, 2011
Why Lying is a Career Killer
My BNET Colleague, Penelope Trunk recently wrote a column titled Why Women Should Lie Even More Than They Do, in which she advised women to lie about everything from their height to their salary. She argues that lying just makes everything “fair.”
It may have been a little too long since Ms. Trunk worked in a normal office job, where you need coworkers to trust you, where HR departments run background checks and where people actually interview you in person.
To read more: Why Lying is a Career Killer
It may have been a little too long since Ms. Trunk worked in a normal office job, where you need coworkers to trust you, where HR departments run background checks and where people actually interview you in person.
To read more: Why Lying is a Career Killer
Wednesday, June 16, 2010
Is that Job Posting a Lie?
Dear Evil HR Lady,
I recently applied for a Career Counselor/Coordinator position. I received a phone interview on a Friday as a preliminary to the in-person. During the conversation the interviewer admitted that it was more of a case manager position. That following Monday the position was retitled and re-posted as a Case Manager. This also happened previously when another agency posted an ad for an Office Manager, and during the interview I discovered that they really wanted an Payroll-HR/Office Manager. Both were non-profits, but is this the normal now? I thinking of withdrawing my candidacy for the former scenario because something just smells dishonest. Your thoughts?
So, Is That Job Posting a Lie?
I recently applied for a Career Counselor/Coordinator position. I received a phone interview on a Friday as a preliminary to the in-person. During the conversation the interviewer admitted that it was more of a case manager position. That following Monday the position was retitled and re-posted as a Case Manager. This also happened previously when another agency posted an ad for an Office Manager, and during the interview I discovered that they really wanted an Payroll-HR/Office Manager. Both were non-profits, but is this the normal now? I thinking of withdrawing my candidacy for the former scenario because something just smells dishonest. Your thoughts?
So, Is That Job Posting a Lie?
Wednesday, August 01, 2007
Salary History
I have an HR person (probably not evil) insisting that I must provide my salary at each previous employer so they can do a background check before I start. This is all after I've already accepted a written job offer (they asked me to complete an application at the same time they sent me an offer).
I went a head and provided the info because I want the job, but it just strikes me as unnecessary and inane.
Any comments?
Thanks,
Texas Boy
It would be unnecessary if all your fellow job seekers weren't a big pack o' liars. People lie about their titles, their salaries, the companies they work for, their level of responsibility and their degrees (or lack thereof).
So, unfortunately, companies have learned that they cannot trust what a candidate says.
As a matter of fact, the next question I'm going to answer is about a person who "made a mistake" on their resume.
And if your HR person isn't at least slightly evil, you probably don't want to work there. I mean, policies that make sense? Career development? Benefits you actually need? Bah! Who needs it?
I went a head and provided the info because I want the job, but it just strikes me as unnecessary and inane.
Any comments?
Thanks,
Texas Boy
It would be unnecessary if all your fellow job seekers weren't a big pack o' liars. People lie about their titles, their salaries, the companies they work for, their level of responsibility and their degrees (or lack thereof).
So, unfortunately, companies have learned that they cannot trust what a candidate says.
As a matter of fact, the next question I'm going to answer is about a person who "made a mistake" on their resume.
And if your HR person isn't at least slightly evil, you probably don't want to work there. I mean, policies that make sense? Career development? Benefits you actually need? Bah! Who needs it?
Saturday, February 02, 2008
Dismissed
I was dismissed from a job. I've been applying to other businesses and just found out that when someone calls this company to verify employment, etc., they say that I was dismissed.
Why does that seem wrong/unfair? Or am I being a baby about this? There are two sides to every story but no one wants to hear this garbage.
Just out of curiosity, what did you expect them to say? "Oh, it was all sunshine and roses until Jan left and now we cry ourselves to sleep at night?"
Sorry, my evil side is coming out again. But, seriously, why wouldn't they say that?
Now, I know a lot of companies won't do anything more than confirm dates of employment, or perhaps verify a title, for fear of a lawsuit. However, saying you were "dismissed" since you truly were, runs very little risk for them. It's something they can prove. Now, if they are giving details of why you were dismissed I would be surprised.
What you need to do is be the first to present the information. On your application don't lie about your reason for leaving. When you are being interviewed and the interviewer asks, "Why did you leave your last job?" have an answer ready that is the truth. Don't whine about the unfairness of it all and if you say, "every story has two sides to it," my little manager brain is going to shut right down. "Here's someone who can't take feedback," I think.
This may or may not be true, but it's what goes through my mind.
I don't know why you were dismissed, so I can't help you come up with a good answer, but just make sure it is the truth. What gets you in trouble is unmanaged expectations--they are making this reference check thinking you were a voluntary termination. When they find out you weren't, bells start ringing and red flags start waving.
Don't let that happen. They need to know before they ask.
And for the rest of you, let this be a lesson to you. Don't assume someone (or some company) will give you a positive reference. You need to verify. Too many people have been burned by an unexpected bad reference.
Why does that seem wrong/unfair? Or am I being a baby about this? There are two sides to every story but no one wants to hear this garbage.
Just out of curiosity, what did you expect them to say? "Oh, it was all sunshine and roses until Jan left and now we cry ourselves to sleep at night?"
Sorry, my evil side is coming out again. But, seriously, why wouldn't they say that?
Now, I know a lot of companies won't do anything more than confirm dates of employment, or perhaps verify a title, for fear of a lawsuit. However, saying you were "dismissed" since you truly were, runs very little risk for them. It's something they can prove. Now, if they are giving details of why you were dismissed I would be surprised.
What you need to do is be the first to present the information. On your application don't lie about your reason for leaving. When you are being interviewed and the interviewer asks, "Why did you leave your last job?" have an answer ready that is the truth. Don't whine about the unfairness of it all and if you say, "every story has two sides to it," my little manager brain is going to shut right down. "Here's someone who can't take feedback," I think.
This may or may not be true, but it's what goes through my mind.
I don't know why you were dismissed, so I can't help you come up with a good answer, but just make sure it is the truth. What gets you in trouble is unmanaged expectations--they are making this reference check thinking you were a voluntary termination. When they find out you weren't, bells start ringing and red flags start waving.
Don't let that happen. They need to know before they ask.
And for the rest of you, let this be a lesson to you. Don't assume someone (or some company) will give you a positive reference. You need to verify. Too many people have been burned by an unexpected bad reference.
Thursday, August 20, 2009
Why Managers Make More Money
I have been working at my place of employment for about a year and half. As of 7/06/09 I was moved to a different department and promoted to supervisor. At the time I was supervising 4 employees. I had to lay one of them off around 7/15 due to being overstaffed.
The employee (employee A) was supposed to be let go by my predecessor, but he never carried it out. I laid off the employee and needless to say that employee was shocked. I found out later that the former employee was going around saying that I fired him because I didn't like him.
He has a couple of friends still employed with the company so hearing this I was alarmed. Both friends (employee B and employee C) are currently under my supervision. I recently had a day off on 8/5 and returned to work on 8/6. I noticed that employee B was acting rather suspiciously. Doing things that he normally wouldn't do. He was always forgetting to lockout his computer when he would leave his desk. This day he immediately minimized an e-mail when I walked in the room. I looked down and saw that the title was "logging". I thought nothing of it. The employee then got up from his desk and left the room only to return a few seconds later and locked out his computer.
I became suspicious of this. Later that day the employee left his computer open and his e-mail up. I noticed a folder in his e-mail called "logging". I opened the folder and found that this employee had been logging incidents against me beginning on 7/16. The day after his friend was let go. He was e-mailing himself notes on interactions with me. Needless to say some of the notes are true but fabricated and some are complete lies. There was one incident that I did read and recall. I had moved the employee outside the office after he had made several costly errors and had told him that he is costing the company money with his mistakes. He logged this in that file. He made another entry how he dreads whenever I come in the room and feels that I shouldn't be allowed to look over his shoulder as he works. He also made another entry that "I said that he had herpes". Which is a lie. Employee C (the other friend) was saying that employee B had them because of his chapped lips and they where laughing back and forth amongst themselves. I had no part in this conversation. I am fairly new to supervising people and was completely blind sided by this because I didn't know that this employee was out for me.
After reading this I have taken a different approach in dealing with this employee and have started employee notes on all my employees in case I need to refer back to them in the future. This employee is consistently late coming in to work and returning from breaks and I am not sure how to deal with this either. Because I really don't need the extra stress if this employee decides to forward this file.I really am just looking for some advice. I am not sure if I should bring this up to my manager. Also I am not sure if I violated anything by reading this log on his company e-mail. Can you please help me out. I am trying my best to learn from this but its difficult and is causing me to be stressed out about the whole situation.
So, I see we're learning why managers make more money, are we? Ahh, talk about trial by fire.
To be supremely unhelpful, I'm going to talk about the things that were done incorrectly. Please note, I used passive voice on purpose because I'm not pointing fingers. I just want to give big hugs to everyone! Let's just all be friends!
Sorry, I don't know what came over me there. But, you made some mistakes and I want to address them. The bigger mistakes, however, were made by your management and your HR department. You don't give someone their first job supervising others and immediately have him fire someone without expert coaching. It seems like you didn't receive that expert coaching.
Employee A should have been terminated by your predecessor. I don't know the story behind that, but laying someone off should never be a single person's decision. I'm all in favor of managers managing, but there are legal things to be considered in a layoff and for those reasons someone other than the direct supervisor need to be aware of and involved in the termination process. A date needs to be set and a witness to the actual termination (preferably another manager or HR, and definitely not a peer of the unlucky person.)
This, obviously, was not done, if the previous boss procrastinated the awful task. (And make no mistake, laying someone off is AWFUL. I've trained managers who couldn't even say the words when they were practicing what to say. It's a terrible task. Terrible. I give you big credit for having the guts to go ahead and do what needed to be done.)
So, you sat down with employee A, told him that due to workload his position was eliminated. Perfect. (I am going to assume you did this part perfectly. Please don't burst my bubble by telling me you yelled across the office, "Hey Bob, you're fired as of today. Don't forget to clock out on the way out. By the way, I hate you.") The problem is you also need to hold a debriefing with the rest of the staff and say, "Employee A was laid off today because we were overstaffed. As of right now, no new terminations are expected. We are very sad to see Employee A go, but unfortunately it was a business decision that was approved at the highest level of the organization."
This heads off the rumors about why Employee A was fired. Of course, even if you did do this, there is no guarantee that the employee won't be angry and bitter and try to gain sympathy with his friends, which is what he is doing.
So, now, where do you go from here?
1. Make a plan. My suggested plan (which may or may not be appropriate for the people involved) is the direct approach. You call employee B into your office, tell him you are aware that he is unhappy with you as a manager. Then you can discuss your expectations, listen to his concerns and schedule a follow up meeting.
2. Before executing this plan, talk to your manager. You're a new supervisor. His job is to help you learn how to do that job. Explain what is going on, and what you want to do and ask for coaching. Do not ask him to talk to Employee B for you. That's wimpy, and you wouldn't do it anyway.
There are several key reasons for doing this. One is that the last thing you want is to handle the situation and have Employee B going to your manager and have him override your decision. If you're going to be overridden, better to find out before you talk to the employee. Another is that you need to make sure you are doing what is right for the business.
3. Keep communication open with all your employees. Especially in a new manager situation, I like to see 1:1 meetings (you with an individual employee) every week or two. Some people think this is serious overkill and micromanaging, but it all depends on what you are doing in these meetings. They can be excellent ways to develop your employees, follow up on their goals (you may have to set some if their previous manager didn't--and feel free to modify if he did), and keep track of workload and projects.
4. Realize that if Employee B's attitude doesn't change, he may have to go as well. You would, of course, do this after regular coaching and with approval from your manager.
Being a manager is tough. But, that's why you make the big bucks.
The employee (employee A) was supposed to be let go by my predecessor, but he never carried it out. I laid off the employee and needless to say that employee was shocked. I found out later that the former employee was going around saying that I fired him because I didn't like him.
He has a couple of friends still employed with the company so hearing this I was alarmed. Both friends (employee B and employee C) are currently under my supervision. I recently had a day off on 8/5 and returned to work on 8/6. I noticed that employee B was acting rather suspiciously. Doing things that he normally wouldn't do. He was always forgetting to lockout his computer when he would leave his desk. This day he immediately minimized an e-mail when I walked in the room. I looked down and saw that the title was "logging". I thought nothing of it. The employee then got up from his desk and left the room only to return a few seconds later and locked out his computer.
I became suspicious of this. Later that day the employee left his computer open and his e-mail up. I noticed a folder in his e-mail called "logging". I opened the folder and found that this employee had been logging incidents against me beginning on 7/16. The day after his friend was let go. He was e-mailing himself notes on interactions with me. Needless to say some of the notes are true but fabricated and some are complete lies. There was one incident that I did read and recall. I had moved the employee outside the office after he had made several costly errors and had told him that he is costing the company money with his mistakes. He logged this in that file. He made another entry how he dreads whenever I come in the room and feels that I shouldn't be allowed to look over his shoulder as he works. He also made another entry that "I said that he had herpes". Which is a lie. Employee C (the other friend) was saying that employee B had them because of his chapped lips and they where laughing back and forth amongst themselves. I had no part in this conversation. I am fairly new to supervising people and was completely blind sided by this because I didn't know that this employee was out for me.
After reading this I have taken a different approach in dealing with this employee and have started employee notes on all my employees in case I need to refer back to them in the future. This employee is consistently late coming in to work and returning from breaks and I am not sure how to deal with this either. Because I really don't need the extra stress if this employee decides to forward this file.I really am just looking for some advice. I am not sure if I should bring this up to my manager. Also I am not sure if I violated anything by reading this log on his company e-mail. Can you please help me out. I am trying my best to learn from this but its difficult and is causing me to be stressed out about the whole situation.
So, I see we're learning why managers make more money, are we? Ahh, talk about trial by fire.
To be supremely unhelpful, I'm going to talk about the things that were done incorrectly. Please note, I used passive voice on purpose because I'm not pointing fingers. I just want to give big hugs to everyone! Let's just all be friends!
Sorry, I don't know what came over me there. But, you made some mistakes and I want to address them. The bigger mistakes, however, were made by your management and your HR department. You don't give someone their first job supervising others and immediately have him fire someone without expert coaching. It seems like you didn't receive that expert coaching.
Employee A should have been terminated by your predecessor. I don't know the story behind that, but laying someone off should never be a single person's decision. I'm all in favor of managers managing, but there are legal things to be considered in a layoff and for those reasons someone other than the direct supervisor need to be aware of and involved in the termination process. A date needs to be set and a witness to the actual termination (preferably another manager or HR, and definitely not a peer of the unlucky person.)
This, obviously, was not done, if the previous boss procrastinated the awful task. (And make no mistake, laying someone off is AWFUL. I've trained managers who couldn't even say the words when they were practicing what to say. It's a terrible task. Terrible. I give you big credit for having the guts to go ahead and do what needed to be done.)
So, you sat down with employee A, told him that due to workload his position was eliminated. Perfect. (I am going to assume you did this part perfectly. Please don't burst my bubble by telling me you yelled across the office, "Hey Bob, you're fired as of today. Don't forget to clock out on the way out. By the way, I hate you.") The problem is you also need to hold a debriefing with the rest of the staff and say, "Employee A was laid off today because we were overstaffed. As of right now, no new terminations are expected. We are very sad to see Employee A go, but unfortunately it was a business decision that was approved at the highest level of the organization."
This heads off the rumors about why Employee A was fired. Of course, even if you did do this, there is no guarantee that the employee won't be angry and bitter and try to gain sympathy with his friends, which is what he is doing.
So, now, where do you go from here?
1. Make a plan. My suggested plan (which may or may not be appropriate for the people involved) is the direct approach. You call employee B into your office, tell him you are aware that he is unhappy with you as a manager. Then you can discuss your expectations, listen to his concerns and schedule a follow up meeting.
2. Before executing this plan, talk to your manager. You're a new supervisor. His job is to help you learn how to do that job. Explain what is going on, and what you want to do and ask for coaching. Do not ask him to talk to Employee B for you. That's wimpy, and you wouldn't do it anyway.
There are several key reasons for doing this. One is that the last thing you want is to handle the situation and have Employee B going to your manager and have him override your decision. If you're going to be overridden, better to find out before you talk to the employee. Another is that you need to make sure you are doing what is right for the business.
3. Keep communication open with all your employees. Especially in a new manager situation, I like to see 1:1 meetings (you with an individual employee) every week or two. Some people think this is serious overkill and micromanaging, but it all depends on what you are doing in these meetings. They can be excellent ways to develop your employees, follow up on their goals (you may have to set some if their previous manager didn't--and feel free to modify if he did), and keep track of workload and projects.
4. Realize that if Employee B's attitude doesn't change, he may have to go as well. You would, of course, do this after regular coaching and with approval from your manager.
Being a manager is tough. But, that's why you make the big bucks.
Thursday, December 06, 2007
Internal Policy
I came across your website this morning and I think it’s great! I have a very complicated question that I’m hoping you can help me with or at least point me in the right direction to get my answer. It’s a little complicated, but here it goes….
About two and a half years ago I worked for a big Corporation (we will call it XYZ). After six months of employment with them, they started doing lay offs. At that time, I went and sat down with my immediate supervisor, knowing I was the new kid on the block, we discussed my options of whether I should stay and try to weather the storm, or take a new opportunity that had just come my way. Because of the uncertainty of what was coming up, I decided to take the new opportunity, and he was very supportive of my decision. When I left, I left on good terms with an “eligible to be rehired” on my record.
Two years have gone by. I applied for a new position at XYZ. I got the first interview, and the hiring supervisor really liked me and felt I was a strong candidate for the job. I told him I had worked for this company up front and before going further in the recruiting process, he had my employee record pulled up to make sure I was re-hirable. When it came back that I was, he proceeded to have me come back for a second and third interview. I interviewed with his immediate supervisor, and they decided they want to hire me. But here’s the catch…. After all that, it seems that XYZ must have an internal policy that they do not rehire, and any rehires have to be sent to a panel for review to see if they will rehire or not, even if the hiring supervisor wants that person. Is it legal for them to have an internal policy like that without it being posted on their website somewhere? Can they do that without it being public notice to all potential candidates that apply? They do have the question on there about have you ever worked for them before, but no where does it state that they will not rehire even if the employee record stays that you can be.
Companies can have whatever policies they want to have as long as they don't violate any laws. So a policy against rehiring people is perfectly legal. And why wouldn't it be? Clearly if you've worked for them in the past, they aren't discriminating against your race or gender. (I suppose you could argue that they are discriminating on the basis of age because you are now older, but I doubt it.) As long as the policy is applied to everyone, or they have clear exceptions that don't violate laws they are good to go.
Policies can be created, implemented, removed, updated and turned on their heads 3 times a week if a company wants to. (Although they don't because policy development takes more time than potty training and if you've ever done the latter you'll appreciate the difficulties faced here.)
However, I would question why they interviewed you in the first place. Either the recruiter was an idiot (possible) or he was not informed of this policy (more likely) and the hiring manager wasn't either, or someone is lying to you.
It's a stupid lie. They do not have to rehire you. You weren't even laid off so you can't even argue you have callback rights. (Which you wouldn't unless you were union, which I doubt you were.)
But, my advice? Forget about it. Go find another job. Companies do stupid things. Having a no rehire policy is one of those stupid things. It's not illegal. It's not even immoral. Just a bad idea. Go work some place else.
About two and a half years ago I worked for a big Corporation (we will call it XYZ). After six months of employment with them, they started doing lay offs. At that time, I went and sat down with my immediate supervisor, knowing I was the new kid on the block, we discussed my options of whether I should stay and try to weather the storm, or take a new opportunity that had just come my way. Because of the uncertainty of what was coming up, I decided to take the new opportunity, and he was very supportive of my decision. When I left, I left on good terms with an “eligible to be rehired” on my record.
Two years have gone by. I applied for a new position at XYZ. I got the first interview, and the hiring supervisor really liked me and felt I was a strong candidate for the job. I told him I had worked for this company up front and before going further in the recruiting process, he had my employee record pulled up to make sure I was re-hirable. When it came back that I was, he proceeded to have me come back for a second and third interview. I interviewed with his immediate supervisor, and they decided they want to hire me. But here’s the catch…. After all that, it seems that XYZ must have an internal policy that they do not rehire, and any rehires have to be sent to a panel for review to see if they will rehire or not, even if the hiring supervisor wants that person. Is it legal for them to have an internal policy like that without it being posted on their website somewhere? Can they do that without it being public notice to all potential candidates that apply? They do have the question on there about have you ever worked for them before, but no where does it state that they will not rehire even if the employee record stays that you can be.
Companies can have whatever policies they want to have as long as they don't violate any laws. So a policy against rehiring people is perfectly legal. And why wouldn't it be? Clearly if you've worked for them in the past, they aren't discriminating against your race or gender. (I suppose you could argue that they are discriminating on the basis of age because you are now older, but I doubt it.) As long as the policy is applied to everyone, or they have clear exceptions that don't violate laws they are good to go.
Policies can be created, implemented, removed, updated and turned on their heads 3 times a week if a company wants to. (Although they don't because policy development takes more time than potty training and if you've ever done the latter you'll appreciate the difficulties faced here.)
However, I would question why they interviewed you in the first place. Either the recruiter was an idiot (possible) or he was not informed of this policy (more likely) and the hiring manager wasn't either, or someone is lying to you.
It's a stupid lie. They do not have to rehire you. You weren't even laid off so you can't even argue you have callback rights. (Which you wouldn't unless you were union, which I doubt you were.)
But, my advice? Forget about it. Go find another job. Companies do stupid things. Having a no rehire policy is one of those stupid things. It's not illegal. It's not even immoral. Just a bad idea. Go work some place else.
Saturday, February 02, 2008
HR=Dentists
Firstly, thanks for proving that HR people are not truly evil - but are maligned, perhaps somewhat like dentists. Thanks for your blog, it's very interesting, and truly different.
Secondly, an interesting question for you: If you met a random Joe Blow on the street, What 5-6 questions would you ask him to be able to predict his salary? What do you think the most important factors are when it comes to remuneration (In general, or within a field!)
I must say that I don't know how to take an assertion that HR people are like dentists. Speaking of dentists, I actually went to the dentist this week. No new cavities (my teeth are so filled, there probably isn't any room left for more fillings)! I always feel like a dentist appointment is like a performance appraisal: (I can see that you are having trouble reaching your back teeth. Do you need an explanation of how to brush? How about flossing? Don't lie to me because I can tell...)
Anyway, your question. I presume you are asking because you, like me, suffer from a case of extreme nosiness. Or you are dating and trying to find someone to support you in the style to which you'd like to become accustomed. I'll play along--and throw out the challenge to my readers as well.
If I wanted to figure out someone's salary without sounding like I was truly prying. (Now my friends who read this are going to be onto me!)
1. So, what do you do for a living? (Make sure you try to get a title out of this question)
2. What company do you work for? (This is important because different industries have very different pay scales. If their answer does not clue you into the industry or size of the company then we can go to question 3.)
3. I think I've heard of them. Is that a large company? (Bigger companies tend to pay more than smaller companies and that question will help to open up info about the industry. If it's a non-profit, well then they probably are looking for you to provide the financial support in the relationship.)
4. That's interesting, I don't know anything about [companies that do x or people that do y, whichever will yield you more info]. (I realize this is a statement, not a question, but it will get people talking. In reality, as they do this they will tell you more about the company and more about what they do. You'll want to find out if they supervise others, and if so, how many.
5. What does your spouse do? (If you are trying to find out for dating purposes, this will also weed out any married people. I'm trying to be helpful on many levels. This also will help give you a clue because people tend to marry people with similar earning potential, unless one spouse is a stay at home parent, then this question doesn't really help.
So, those are my nosey, salary eliciting questions. Of course, you could always be straight forward and say, "So, what is your annual gross salary, plus expected bonuses?" But in most cases, that won't get you very far.
If you are asking because you are a recruiter, I recommend the direct approach. Otherwise good luck with the indirect quote.
And readers, I expect your nosey questions in the comments.
Secondly, an interesting question for you: If you met a random Joe Blow on the street, What 5-6 questions would you ask him to be able to predict his salary? What do you think the most important factors are when it comes to remuneration (In general, or within a field!)
I must say that I don't know how to take an assertion that HR people are like dentists. Speaking of dentists, I actually went to the dentist this week. No new cavities (my teeth are so filled, there probably isn't any room left for more fillings)! I always feel like a dentist appointment is like a performance appraisal: (I can see that you are having trouble reaching your back teeth. Do you need an explanation of how to brush? How about flossing? Don't lie to me because I can tell...)
Anyway, your question. I presume you are asking because you, like me, suffer from a case of extreme nosiness. Or you are dating and trying to find someone to support you in the style to which you'd like to become accustomed. I'll play along--and throw out the challenge to my readers as well.
If I wanted to figure out someone's salary without sounding like I was truly prying. (Now my friends who read this are going to be onto me!)
1. So, what do you do for a living? (Make sure you try to get a title out of this question)
2. What company do you work for? (This is important because different industries have very different pay scales. If their answer does not clue you into the industry or size of the company then we can go to question 3.)
3. I think I've heard of them. Is that a large company? (Bigger companies tend to pay more than smaller companies and that question will help to open up info about the industry. If it's a non-profit, well then they probably are looking for you to provide the financial support in the relationship.)
4. That's interesting, I don't know anything about [companies that do x or people that do y, whichever will yield you more info]. (I realize this is a statement, not a question, but it will get people talking. In reality, as they do this they will tell you more about the company and more about what they do. You'll want to find out if they supervise others, and if so, how many.
5. What does your spouse do? (If you are trying to find out for dating purposes, this will also weed out any married people. I'm trying to be helpful on many levels. This also will help give you a clue because people tend to marry people with similar earning potential, unless one spouse is a stay at home parent, then this question doesn't really help.
So, those are my nosey, salary eliciting questions. Of course, you could always be straight forward and say, "So, what is your annual gross salary, plus expected bonuses?" But in most cases, that won't get you very far.
If you are asking because you are a recruiter, I recommend the direct approach. Otherwise good luck with the indirect quote.
And readers, I expect your nosey questions in the comments.
Monday, May 12, 2008
Exiting an Employee
I am a head-hunter. I like to think I am a good head-hunter (we are all deluded in some way, I suppose) and I try and help my clients and my candidates get the job (I do get a fee when I do that properly).
However, I have, myself, only ever worked in small organizations and there is one subject I would love to find further information on: resignation and exit interview (from large firms: I work with banks).
-Resignation is typically done to the direct line manager. To what extend does HR get involved, other than administratively?
-What are Exit Interviews for? I did extensive research (i.e. I read your WHOLE BLOG) and the one post you made on it is a little ambivalent. Now this question is really for my intellectual curiosity. My real question is: Should the employee be honest as to the reasons why he is leaving? Arguably in my position they are not fundamentally unhappy about the position they are about to leave (I called them, not the other way around) and so we will assume that the frustrations they have with their role are relatively minor.
Resignations are a fact of life. In fact, a certain level of turnover is good for business--the thing HR cares about is not so much that someone is terminating, but that the right person terminates.
You see, there is good voluntary turnover and bad voluntary turnover. We're interested in decreasing the bad voluntary turnover and increasing the good voluntary turnover.
Once someone has resigned, though, you are right, it's pretty much administrative. (That is, in my never to be humble opinion, how it should be. I am not a fan of counter offers and think they should only be offered in the rarest of circumstances. My question when someone wants to make a counter offer is, "why weren't you paying the person that much to begin with?" Of course, the answer is usually something involving poor compensation structures, but I digress.)
So, why do we want to do exit interviews? Well, because they are thrilling and break up the monotony of filling out forms all day. (Oh wait, exit interviews are paperwork. Sigh, I'll have to think of something else that's exciting. I know, I know, EEO investigations!)
Exit interviews. First of all, we know people lie. "This was just too fabulous of an opportunity to pass up, although it pains me to leave because I love it here so much," means, "I've been networking like mad and stalking headhunters for the past year because I'm dying to get out of this nightmare." That is fine. We know that.
We also know that the the main reason people leave their jobs is their managers. If you love your manager, you'll put up with a lot more. Because I know people won't be forthcoming (in most situations) about their true feelings regarding their managers, what I'm looking for more is trends. How many people are leaving in that particular department? How do they compare to other departments.
Questions that I want to know the answer to, but don't generally get a straight answer to, are what company are you going to, and what is your new salary going to be? This can help HR know who our competition is, and if our pay structures are competitive.
You state that because you called them, not the other way around, they must be happy with their jobs. Well, yes and no. An object at rest prefers to remain at rest. It's much easier to retain someone than it is to recruit someone new for that very reason. And it's much easier for someone to stay in a job then it is to find a new one. And how did you get their names anyway? If you are cold calling, well, that's one thing. But, generally when I've been contacted by headhunters and I've turned them down, they've always asked me the same question, "Do you know anyone who might be interested?"
Sometimes the answer is yes, and sometimes the answer is no. But, if I hand over a name of someone (by the way, I always ask the person first), it's because I know they are interested in changing jobs. If they weren't interested, you wouldn't have their names, in that scenario.
Should an employee be honest? Absolutely. Should he be cruel and burn bridges? Never. Why are you leaving? Opportunity, more money, better hours, closer to home, can all be true answers, even if your manager is also driving you up the wall.
We do gain valuable information. And I think a second level answer is more revealing than a first level. Almost everyone will say they are leaving for a new opportunity. The second level question is what makes this a better opportunity than what you have here? Salary, promotional opportunities, management experience, varied industry experience, etc all help HR to develop succession planning tools and development plans that can meet the company's goals, as well as help employees to be fulfilled.
And you say you are in banking. Do you have a job available that only involves blogging, but pays a lot? I'm very interested.
However, I have, myself, only ever worked in small organizations and there is one subject I would love to find further information on: resignation and exit interview (from large firms: I work with banks).
-Resignation is typically done to the direct line manager. To what extend does HR get involved, other than administratively?
-What are Exit Interviews for? I did extensive research (i.e. I read your WHOLE BLOG) and the one post you made on it is a little ambivalent. Now this question is really for my intellectual curiosity. My real question is: Should the employee be honest as to the reasons why he is leaving? Arguably in my position they are not fundamentally unhappy about the position they are about to leave (I called them, not the other way around) and so we will assume that the frustrations they have with their role are relatively minor.
Resignations are a fact of life. In fact, a certain level of turnover is good for business--the thing HR cares about is not so much that someone is terminating, but that the right person terminates.
You see, there is good voluntary turnover and bad voluntary turnover. We're interested in decreasing the bad voluntary turnover and increasing the good voluntary turnover.
Once someone has resigned, though, you are right, it's pretty much administrative. (That is, in my never to be humble opinion, how it should be. I am not a fan of counter offers and think they should only be offered in the rarest of circumstances. My question when someone wants to make a counter offer is, "why weren't you paying the person that much to begin with?" Of course, the answer is usually something involving poor compensation structures, but I digress.)
So, why do we want to do exit interviews? Well, because they are thrilling and break up the monotony of filling out forms all day. (Oh wait, exit interviews are paperwork. Sigh, I'll have to think of something else that's exciting. I know, I know, EEO investigations!)
Exit interviews. First of all, we know people lie. "This was just too fabulous of an opportunity to pass up, although it pains me to leave because I love it here so much," means, "I've been networking like mad and stalking headhunters for the past year because I'm dying to get out of this nightmare." That is fine. We know that.
We also know that the the main reason people leave their jobs is their managers. If you love your manager, you'll put up with a lot more. Because I know people won't be forthcoming (in most situations) about their true feelings regarding their managers, what I'm looking for more is trends. How many people are leaving in that particular department? How do they compare to other departments.
Questions that I want to know the answer to, but don't generally get a straight answer to, are what company are you going to, and what is your new salary going to be? This can help HR know who our competition is, and if our pay structures are competitive.
You state that because you called them, not the other way around, they must be happy with their jobs. Well, yes and no. An object at rest prefers to remain at rest. It's much easier to retain someone than it is to recruit someone new for that very reason. And it's much easier for someone to stay in a job then it is to find a new one. And how did you get their names anyway? If you are cold calling, well, that's one thing. But, generally when I've been contacted by headhunters and I've turned them down, they've always asked me the same question, "Do you know anyone who might be interested?"
Sometimes the answer is yes, and sometimes the answer is no. But, if I hand over a name of someone (by the way, I always ask the person first), it's because I know they are interested in changing jobs. If they weren't interested, you wouldn't have their names, in that scenario.
Should an employee be honest? Absolutely. Should he be cruel and burn bridges? Never. Why are you leaving? Opportunity, more money, better hours, closer to home, can all be true answers, even if your manager is also driving you up the wall.
We do gain valuable information. And I think a second level answer is more revealing than a first level. Almost everyone will say they are leaving for a new opportunity. The second level question is what makes this a better opportunity than what you have here? Salary, promotional opportunities, management experience, varied industry experience, etc all help HR to develop succession planning tools and development plans that can meet the company's goals, as well as help employees to be fulfilled.
And you say you are in banking. Do you have a job available that only involves blogging, but pays a lot? I'm very interested.
Thursday, January 31, 2008
Not Quite Convicted
I was recently terminated from an employer because they had claimed that I had provided false and inaccurate information on my employment application which I dispute. In particular, there was a question asking if "I had ever been convicted for a crime in which a pardon has not been granted?". The answer to this question is no and that is what I answered. However, I do have an outstanding charge going back from about 6 years ago which still has not been resolved. Nevertheless I do not have any criminal record nor any sort of conviction on file. The employer claimed that I had lied on that application but I simply did not, it is completely the honest truth.
After I was terminated I applied for Employment Insurance and I was granted it. The folks at the Employment Insurance office agreed with me that I had not been fired for a just cause and recommended that I might want to pursue this issue with the Human Rights Commission. So I have recently filed a complaint about this issue to the Human Rights Commission and am awaiting their response.
I was just wondering, in your experience, is what the company did legal? I do not feel it is right at all because I was completely honest and I was a great worker with a good work record.
You didn't lie. The Unemployment Insurance people agreed with you. (Now, HR people will say that the unemployment insurance people grant unemployment to anyone who didn't actually commit murder while at work, except when you truly laid someone off through no fault of their own and suddenly they want extra information and a sacrificed chicken in order to approve the claim.)
So, in short, I don't know what you allegedly did, but if it was bad enough I can see why the company may be willing to face a fine rather than have you on board. Doesn't make it legal, just understandable.
Hopefully you'll be able to clear up this legal problem without getting a conviction. In the mean time, take your unemployment and go out and look for a new job. If you want to pursue this with the Human Rights Commission (are you Canadian?) go ahead. But, don't sit home moping. Go get a new job.
After I was terminated I applied for Employment Insurance and I was granted it. The folks at the Employment Insurance office agreed with me that I had not been fired for a just cause and recommended that I might want to pursue this issue with the Human Rights Commission. So I have recently filed a complaint about this issue to the Human Rights Commission and am awaiting their response.
I was just wondering, in your experience, is what the company did legal? I do not feel it is right at all because I was completely honest and I was a great worker with a good work record.
You didn't lie. The Unemployment Insurance people agreed with you. (Now, HR people will say that the unemployment insurance people grant unemployment to anyone who didn't actually commit murder while at work, except when you truly laid someone off through no fault of their own and suddenly they want extra information and a sacrificed chicken in order to approve the claim.)
So, in short, I don't know what you allegedly did, but if it was bad enough I can see why the company may be willing to face a fine rather than have you on board. Doesn't make it legal, just understandable.
Hopefully you'll be able to clear up this legal problem without getting a conviction. In the mean time, take your unemployment and go out and look for a new job. If you want to pursue this with the Human Rights Commission (are you Canadian?) go ahead. But, don't sit home moping. Go get a new job.
Thursday, April 30, 2009
You Can't Quit, I'm Firing You!
Another guy and I, used to work for a "bad boss". You know the type - he will lie, cheat, steal, etc. if so inclined. This other guy quit, and after the "non-compete" period was up, he started his own "competing" company. His company grew enough to bring on additional help, and he offered me a job. I accepted his offer and turned in my notice to HR at the old company. A week later, this "bad boss" found out I was leaving to go work for this competing ex-employee and drummed up a number of bogus reasons to fire me and I was walked out 2 days earlier than planned.
I worked for the new employer for a year before the economy slowed down and I was laid off. My problem is in applying for new jobs. They ask "Have you ever been terminated? Explain". If I say "No" and they contact the "bad boss" company, will a "He was terminated" response make me look like a liar? If I say "Yes", what do I put for the "explain" when I was really terminated for planning to work for a competitor? Will the "potential employer" get my "bad bosses" bogus reasons for my "termination?
I find this to be a fascinating question, which kind of surprises me because on the surface it doesn't seem that exotic a question. After all, it's not like the kind that Dear Abby gets ("Dear Abby, my sister-in-law didn't sit next to me at a bridal shower. True, she arrived late, and there were no chairs next to me, but she should have made an effort. I was so angry, I poisoned her punch. Then I felt guilty and knocked it out of her hand before she could drink it. It stained her shirt. She says I should pay for the cleaning. I don't think I should. What do you think?")
Here's why I think it's interesting: I would say that you've never been terminated from a position. Lots of times employers don't want you working for them once they know you are going to a competitor. It's not uncommon for someone to hand in two weeks notice and be told that today will be their last day.
But, I think I'm wrong here. This situation is different in that they came up with reasons to terminate you, didn't terminate you upon your giving notice, and will (most likely) state you were terminated if anyone should happen to call them for a reference.
The problem with references is that you don't get a chance to defend yourself. (Usually.) I know most HR types are huge fans of references, but I think there are huge flaws in the whole reference system. After all, unless I know the person giving the reference, how do I know she's not a complete whacko? That's another reason why networking is a much better system for finding a job. But, I'm digressing.
Here's what I would write: "I received an offer to work for [x] (a direct competitor), and gave two weeks' notice. Company opted to terminate me prior to the notice period ending." That sounds accurate, right? Will it compensate for a scathing reference should they call your previous company? Probably not. (See above paragraph.)
The more critical question is, will your last boss (who just laid you off) give you a good reference? I think it shows your value as a worker when someone has recruited you like he did. I think it says a lot when someone says, "I not only like working with you, I like working with you enough to hire you myself."
Good luck with your job search. Hopefully all will go well and you'll be in a fancy new job soon.
I worked for the new employer for a year before the economy slowed down and I was laid off. My problem is in applying for new jobs. They ask "Have you ever been terminated? Explain". If I say "No" and they contact the "bad boss" company, will a "He was terminated" response make me look like a liar? If I say "Yes", what do I put for the "explain" when I was really terminated for planning to work for a competitor? Will the "potential employer" get my "bad bosses" bogus reasons for my "termination?
I find this to be a fascinating question, which kind of surprises me because on the surface it doesn't seem that exotic a question. After all, it's not like the kind that Dear Abby gets ("Dear Abby, my sister-in-law didn't sit next to me at a bridal shower. True, she arrived late, and there were no chairs next to me, but she should have made an effort. I was so angry, I poisoned her punch. Then I felt guilty and knocked it out of her hand before she could drink it. It stained her shirt. She says I should pay for the cleaning. I don't think I should. What do you think?")
Here's why I think it's interesting: I would say that you've never been terminated from a position. Lots of times employers don't want you working for them once they know you are going to a competitor. It's not uncommon for someone to hand in two weeks notice and be told that today will be their last day.
But, I think I'm wrong here. This situation is different in that they came up with reasons to terminate you, didn't terminate you upon your giving notice, and will (most likely) state you were terminated if anyone should happen to call them for a reference.
The problem with references is that you don't get a chance to defend yourself. (Usually.) I know most HR types are huge fans of references, but I think there are huge flaws in the whole reference system. After all, unless I know the person giving the reference, how do I know she's not a complete whacko? That's another reason why networking is a much better system for finding a job. But, I'm digressing.
Here's what I would write: "I received an offer to work for [x] (a direct competitor), and gave two weeks' notice. Company opted to terminate me prior to the notice period ending." That sounds accurate, right? Will it compensate for a scathing reference should they call your previous company? Probably not. (See above paragraph.)
The more critical question is, will your last boss (who just laid you off) give you a good reference? I think it shows your value as a worker when someone has recruited you like he did. I think it says a lot when someone says, "I not only like working with you, I like working with you enough to hire you myself."
Good luck with your job search. Hopefully all will go well and you'll be in a fancy new job soon.
Monday, June 09, 2008
Gossip
I worked at car Dealership One for about six months. I was named sales person of the month. I consistently sold more cars than anyone else on the sales floor and I actively participated in all sales meetings and even started training other new sales associates who started working at the dealership. I was eventually promoted to the internet sales department and did very well. I was scolded and reprimanded for having too many people there and selling too many cars. After that conversation, I quietly spoke to the general manager of the dealership and turned in my resignation.
I was hired on by Dealership Two as an internet sales manager. I was thrilled about the move up and shared the news with a few of my friends and former co-workers from Dealership One. Of course, I knew this news that I shared with them would make its rounds through Dealership One. I was fine with that because I left on good terms and had nothing to hide from Dealership Two. In fact, I listed the general manager from Dealership One on the application that I filled out for Dealership Two.
I started work and was doing very well. I shared this news with one of my co-workers from Dealership One. As soon as the general manager of Dealership One heard of this news, he decided to place a call to the manager of Dealership Two to find out how I was doing.
He asked several questions about my performance, how much money I was making, and how many cars I had sold, as well as how my personality was fitting in with the new group. My current supervisors refused to answer any of these questions stating that it was not appropriate for them to discuss my performance or achievements with him without my prior consent. Good job, new dealership! At least someone was acting professionally.
After this phone conversation took place, the general manager from Dealership One told everyone during a staff meeting that he found out where I was working and how I was doing. He said I was making less money at Dealership Two than I was when I was still working for Dealership One and also that I was worse off and unhappy. He said it was a shame that I was headed toward a downward spiral and that he would be there to "give me a good talkin' to" if I ever came to my senses and asked for my old job back. He also made several comments about how my poor performance and attitude problems got me into this "situation" and that he hoped none of his current sales people went down the road I was traveling down.
How should I handle this situation? Should I contact him and ask what he was hoping to accomplish by spreading false rumors? I want to handle this very professionally so as not to compromise my integrity or my name in the car industry, but I also want to ensure that he does not continue to act in this manner going forward.
Well, you have some advantages here. People talk--but they don't only talk to this one sales manager. Your current sales manager not only didn't say bad things about your--or believe any of the bad things your former manager might have said--but told you about it. That is an excellent sign. People who lie eventually will not be trusted. Keep in mind that after your former boss blasted you, the co-worker who knew the truth about your success undoubtedly told the other sales people that your boss was, ummm, incorrect.
They just lost respect for him as well.
I see two options for you. Option one is to just let it go. Your record at your new job will speak for itself. If you are performing at a high level, your current manager would be a fool to let any rumors bother him. You can just wait for the natural order of things to occur, and boss one will eventually get what is coming to him.
Option 2 carries risk, but it is also a little bit more fun. Your previous boss said what he said because he assumes he can get away with it. He assumes that either you won't find out (dumb assumption) or that you won't say anything. He also assumes that his position as the boss ensures that his current salespeople will suck up to him, so he has no worries. You can pick up the phone and call him. Just be direct. Don't ask for an apology or an explanation. Just tell him that you know what he is saying about you. Something like this:
"John, I hear you've been talking about me in staff meetings. I'm honored that you are still concerned about me. Trust me, I'm doing just fine in my current job."
The advantage of this approach is that he's not expecting you to say anything, but in the back of his mind he thinks that IF you say something you'll be a screaming mess and he'll get to be all defensive and this will justify his statement because you are obviously unstable. By just letting him know that you know he's talking, he's been warned.
If he continues, I'd just let it go--unless it starts to affect your current job. The nice thing about sales jobs is that there are hard numbers to go along with performance. If, for a future job, he bad-mouths you, you'll be able to produce your actual sales numbers to show your performance.
I was hired on by Dealership Two as an internet sales manager. I was thrilled about the move up and shared the news with a few of my friends and former co-workers from Dealership One. Of course, I knew this news that I shared with them would make its rounds through Dealership One. I was fine with that because I left on good terms and had nothing to hide from Dealership Two. In fact, I listed the general manager from Dealership One on the application that I filled out for Dealership Two.
I started work and was doing very well. I shared this news with one of my co-workers from Dealership One. As soon as the general manager of Dealership One heard of this news, he decided to place a call to the manager of Dealership Two to find out how I was doing.
He asked several questions about my performance, how much money I was making, and how many cars I had sold, as well as how my personality was fitting in with the new group. My current supervisors refused to answer any of these questions stating that it was not appropriate for them to discuss my performance or achievements with him without my prior consent. Good job, new dealership! At least someone was acting professionally.
After this phone conversation took place, the general manager from Dealership One told everyone during a staff meeting that he found out where I was working and how I was doing. He said I was making less money at Dealership Two than I was when I was still working for Dealership One and also that I was worse off and unhappy. He said it was a shame that I was headed toward a downward spiral and that he would be there to "give me a good talkin' to" if I ever came to my senses and asked for my old job back. He also made several comments about how my poor performance and attitude problems got me into this "situation" and that he hoped none of his current sales people went down the road I was traveling down.
How should I handle this situation? Should I contact him and ask what he was hoping to accomplish by spreading false rumors? I want to handle this very professionally so as not to compromise my integrity or my name in the car industry, but I also want to ensure that he does not continue to act in this manner going forward.
Well, you have some advantages here. People talk--but they don't only talk to this one sales manager. Your current sales manager not only didn't say bad things about your--or believe any of the bad things your former manager might have said--but told you about it. That is an excellent sign. People who lie eventually will not be trusted. Keep in mind that after your former boss blasted you, the co-worker who knew the truth about your success undoubtedly told the other sales people that your boss was, ummm, incorrect.
They just lost respect for him as well.
I see two options for you. Option one is to just let it go. Your record at your new job will speak for itself. If you are performing at a high level, your current manager would be a fool to let any rumors bother him. You can just wait for the natural order of things to occur, and boss one will eventually get what is coming to him.
Option 2 carries risk, but it is also a little bit more fun. Your previous boss said what he said because he assumes he can get away with it. He assumes that either you won't find out (dumb assumption) or that you won't say anything. He also assumes that his position as the boss ensures that his current salespeople will suck up to him, so he has no worries. You can pick up the phone and call him. Just be direct. Don't ask for an apology or an explanation. Just tell him that you know what he is saying about you. Something like this:
"John, I hear you've been talking about me in staff meetings. I'm honored that you are still concerned about me. Trust me, I'm doing just fine in my current job."
The advantage of this approach is that he's not expecting you to say anything, but in the back of his mind he thinks that IF you say something you'll be a screaming mess and he'll get to be all defensive and this will justify his statement because you are obviously unstable. By just letting him know that you know he's talking, he's been warned.
If he continues, I'd just let it go--unless it starts to affect your current job. The nice thing about sales jobs is that there are hard numbers to go along with performance. If, for a future job, he bad-mouths you, you'll be able to produce your actual sales numbers to show your performance.
Tuesday, September 28, 2010
Is It HR's Job to Protect Employees...or VPs?
Just why didn't HR step in a fix a problem manager? The answer lies in priorities and responsibilities. You may be surprised as to where HR's priorities really lie.
Is It HR's Job to Protect Employees...or VPs?
Is It HR's Job to Protect Employees...or VPs?
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